2 small units vs 1 large for Diesel.

[BioFarmer93]

Mark,
How much room do you have between the grill and the radiator- sorry, I'm not too familiar with GM stuff, I have very little on my '89 NA 7.3 idi CC dually... I had to mount in the bed. For a frame of reference, to get that production, I used a unipolar four group system of 21 5"x14" plates each. That's right, 84 plates in all. I know it's kind of like a punch in the gut, but it can be done- it's just not cheap... You're not going to get big production from one or two small units. Another thing to keep in mind is that Ben (Koya) is getting those results from Powerstrokes, I'm running the predecessor to that motor so he and I comparing mileage gains is apples to oranges.

Yes, the cable to the bed will be expensive, I know mine certainly was.

An observation about reactor types... If you go unipolar you can go with a straight on-off setup with a full 28% KOH electrolyte and no worries about overheating, but the build is slightly more complex.

If you go bipolar, you will have to either use a PWM so you can run full strength electrolyte (for best efficiency) or skip the PWM, go straight on-off and tailor your electrolyte strength, number of neutral plates and total number of plates to avoid thermal runaway. This is a method some people are using but their output isn't anything to write home about and the efficiency is low.

If .04 is adequate, I'll go with that. The supplier I looked at this morning only had .025 and .062 in stock, so the .04 would probably be special order. If they need to source an entire sheet just to make my one project it *could* drive the price up for me, not sure.

I'm assuming that there is an "optimum" thickness? Is the .062 ultimately too thick?

.025" is a little light, & .062" is a little heavy. That being said, I assure you that both have been used in systems before. Maybe call around? Someone else might have something in the .035"-.05" range sitting in the shop. If not then go with the .062" from your guy.

Ok, I've been basing my figures based on Biofarmers 8LPM system @ 100 Amps, but yeah, I just did the math (assuming the figures scale correctly) and I see exactly what you're quoting now - 4.8LPM@60A, again, assuming a perfect scaling from the 8LPM@100A Biofarmer is achieving.

As for what I'll be happy with, this seems to be showing differing opinions as well. The "recommended' figures I read in lots of places (before finding the forum here) was the .50 equation (so 3.25LPM for a 6.5L engine), but now I'm hearing differing opinions, with some saying "Go crazy", and others (like yourself) suggesting I'll be happy in the 4.0-4.5LPM range.

Ultimately, we come back to the available amp limits I'l able to work with, though, and I think 60 is about as high as I'm willing to go, leaving a reserve for charging the batteries and running accessories, etc.

The .50 equation was arrived at for gasoline powered computer managed engines, and is essentially a compromise figure that will show some gains for 2.0-5.5L gassers with minimal ECU & effi twiddling. The only person getting really good gains on big diesels without going at least 1 to 1 is OldGold and he's doing all kind of other secret stuff to them that's not covered by the freedom of information act... DARPA & the NSA will probably come down on my butt for just saying that much.

[Oshawapilot]

Ok, so in your opinion I should be looking at at least 6-7LPM production for worthwhile results?

I'm not against "doing it right" the first time, even if it means splitting the purchases up over a few paycheques in order to avoid triggering the wife's "" alert.

Space behind the grille...hmmm. Ironically I had my grille off a few weeks ago (replacing headlight bulbs) and a few months before that (relocating the injection pumps solenoid driver, commonly referred to as the PMD in the airflow ahead of the rad), and despite that, I can't visualize if there would be enough space behind there for 2 or 3 generators. I will look again today. That said, I have my doubts that space ahead of the grille will be adequate, and even if it was, the 6.5 has been known to suffer overheating while towing with even minimal rad blockage, so I don't think it's wise to start hanging all sorts of gear in front of the rad.

This leaves some under-hood room to work with. I know I can locate 3 units without much problem - they will have to be distributed around, but I'm not worried about the electrical and plumbing - both are second hat to me, especially the electrical.

Ultimately, if we have to go with the in-bed option, then I'll do it that way and suck up the cost of the wire. Wire is something else I may be able to find at one of my customers as well, so I'll stay on the hunt. (I'm a commercial driver who works for a big LTL carrier, so I have a lot of customers I deliver and pickup from that have a lot of what I need for this project - it's simply a matter if they will sell it to me as most are not at the retail level, but wholesale or industrial...)

The PWM is another potential cost - most smaller PWM's I see online are limited to the 30A range as a maximum, meaning for a project in the 60-70 amp range I'm looking at needing at least 2, perhaps 3 if I go with separate modules. At about $30/each (unless you guys have found sources for them less expensive?) that's going to add at least another $100 to the project.

I did see some online that can handle 100A, but it's more expensive than buying 3 individual 30A units.

As for cell design, I'm still not entirely clear on the whole design options and benefits of one versus the other, number of plates, etc etc, so I'm leaving that to you guys.

[BioFarmer93]

Ok, so in your opinion I should be looking at at least 6-7LPM production for worthwhile results?
In my opinion, yes.

I'm not against "doing it right" the first time, even if it means splitting the purchases up over a few paycheques in order to avoid triggering the wife's "" alert.
I sure know about that!

Space behind the grille...hmmm. Ironically I had my grille off a few weeks ago (replacing headlight bulbs) and a few months before that (relocating the injection pumps solenoid driver, commonly referred to as the PMD in the airflow ahead of the rad), and despite that, I can't visualize if there would be enough space behind there for 2 or 3 generators. I will look again today. That said, I have my doubts that space ahead of the grille will be adequate, and even if it was, the 6.5 has been known to suffer overheating while towing with even minimal rad blockage, so I don't think it's wise to start hanging all sorts of gear in front of the rad.

This leaves some under-hood room to work with. I know I can locate 3 units without much problem - they will have to be distributed around, but I'm not worried about the electrical and plumbing - both are second hat to me, especially the electrical.
The electrical is easy, the plumbing on the other hand needs to be a bit more carefully attended to, as the height of various components in relationship to one another is pretty important.

Ultimately, if we have to go with the in-bed option, then I'll do it that way and suck up the cost of the wire. Wire is something else I may be able to find at one of my customers as well, so I'll stay on the hunt. (I'm a commercial driver who works for a big LTL carrier, so I have a lot of customers I deliver and pickup from that have a lot of what I need for this project - it's simply a matter if they will sell it to me as most are not at the retail level, but wholesale or industrial...)

The PWM is another potential cost - most smaller PWM's I see online are limited to the 30A range as a maximum, meaning for a project in the 60-70 amp range I'm looking at needing at least 2, perhaps 3 if I go with separate modules. At about $30/each (unless you guys have found sources for them less expensive?) that's going to add at least another $100 to the project.
If you go with three separate units you can use three micro switches in a row mounted on a plate/bracket with a nylon slider connected to your throttle cable to trigger each one as throttle position advances. Each switch of course would go to a solenoid. Not a PWM, but a simple, reliable, fixable way to accomplish on-the-fly RPM related production variation.

I did see some online that can handle 100A, but it's more expensive than buying 3 individual 30A units.

As for cell design, I'm still not entirely clear on the whole design options and benefits of one versus the other, number of plates, etc etc, so I'm leaving that to you guys.

Two very different schools of thought on that, but unfortunately professional ethics and StarFleet's non-interference regulations prevent me from saying things like "bipolar has had it's day, unipolar rocks!" or "Want better more efficient production? Go unipolar!" So you're just going to have to do a lot of reading and video watching... I'd suggest Zero Fossil Fuel's Youtube stuff on "The Bat Cell" and HHOPWR's thread on the "Magnetic Beastie" at the HHO Underground, www.nicksrealm.com

[racer55]

Hello
I am new in town and do not intend to thread steal,I have been known to be a partner in crime on occasion with Oshawapilot on some projects so I thought I would enter the fray.

There have been posts about the high amp draw required by these systems and just to address that fact I thought I would add in that there is an aftermarket supplier who makes alternators for our 6.5TD`s that will output 130,150,170 or higher amps in a single OEM style unit.
I know pilot has a great warranty on a nearly new alternator but like everything else in the world problems are often solved by money,except for good health-priceless.

I would be very interested in the design offered earlier in the thread by BioFarmer93,from what I have read there is a steep learning curve involved with this and I am from the school where it is best to try and learn from others who know what hard lessons to avoid.

[lhazleton]

Racer,
Welcome to the Forum. It's nice to see a newb in here that realizes that there's lots of work and learning to be done to successfully use this technology.
Luckily, Pilot has come a long way in a short time.

[Oshawapilot]

If you go with three separate units you can use three micro switches in a row mounted on a plate/bracket with a nylon slider connected to your throttle cable to trigger each one as throttle position advances. Each switch of course would go to a solenoid. Not a PWM, but a simple, reliable, fixable way to accomplish on-the-fly RPM related production variation.

That's a problem since the electronic 6.5TD's are a fully electronic "Fly By Wire" engine - there is no throttle cable to the IP, it's entirely electronic from the pedal to the fuel solenoid driver.

Yes, I could get into mounting the required microswitches on some sort of bracket fabricated to the pedal, but I'm not sure how effective that would be since I use the cruise control as much as physically possible (even in town) to maximize MPG. Seing as how there is no physical connection between pedal and pump when on cruise the pedal is "dead" - it doesn't move.

I would have to go with a manually controlled system with a multi position switch on the dash, or something. Not ideal.

My other concern is that my usual RPM range is from 600 (idle) to 1700/1800 - rarely do I exceed this unless I'm towing, which in the grand scheme of things is a fraction of my annual mileage.

So, I assume based on this discussion that there is a such thing as "too much" HHO. If I left the system on 100% at all times (generating, say, 7LPM) is it going to overwhelm the engine at low RPM's or have negative effects?

[BioFarmer93]

That's a problem since the electronic 6.5TD's are a fully electronic "Fly By Wire" engine - there is no throttle cable to the IP, it's entirely electronic from the pedal to the fuel solenoid driver.
That's just wrong... Too much electronics to go bad.

Yes, I could get into mounting the required microswitches on some sort of bracket fabricated to the pedal, but I'm not sure how effective that would be since I use the cruise control as much as physically possible (even in town) to maximize MPG. Seing as how there is no physical connection between pedal and pump when on cruise the pedal is "dead" - it doesn't move.
What about boost switch activated?

I would have to go with a manually controlled system with a multi position switch on the dash, or something. Not ideal.
No, not ideal... Ideal would be having it by your right hand on your center console.

My other concern is that my usual RPM range is from 600 (idle) to 1700/1800 - rarely do I exceed this unless I'm towing, which in the grand scheme of things is a fraction of my annual mileage.
Ah, you must have an automatic trans then, I regularly rev to 3k getting onto the expressway. Does your alternator make full output at idle? Mine doesn't.

So, I assume based on this discussion that there is a such thing as "too much" HHO. If I left the system on 100% at all times (generating, say, 7LPM) is it going to overwhelm the engine at low RPM's or have negative effects?
600 RPM x 6.5L = 3,900L.... 7LPM(HHO)/3,900L = .0017948%.... Doubtful.

[Oshawapilot]

That's just wrong... Too much electronics to go bad.

The actual fly by wire thing on the 6.5's has actually proven to be remarkably reliable over the years. Occasionally people have issues with the pedal (since in effect it's just a giant potentiometer) but it's pretty rare.

What about boost switch activated?

Could work, I suppose but calibrating it would be difficult as I try to keep my boost as low as possible - one of my other back of my mind projects is actually a manual boost control which would allow me to completely open the wastegate while at low-load highway cruise .

Currently I'm running a manual wastegate which is setup to provide only 5PSI under most loads (perhaps 10PSI at WOT) and typically builds only 2-4 PSI under my driving style.

Again, low boost = higher MPG. I had my wastegate setup cranked so I could build and maintain 10-15PSI at one point and it cut nearly 4MPG off my fuel consumption - massive difference. More power and snappier performance, yes - MPG, not so much.

I would have to go with a manually controlled system with a multi position switch on the dash, or something. Not ideal.
No, not ideal... Ideal would be having it by your right hand on your center console.

Ah, you must have an automatic trans then, I regularly rev to 3k getting onto the expressway. Does your alternator make full output at idle? Mine doesn't.

On the 6.5 you start touching redline @3500 RPM. Peak fuel economy is 1850 RPM, and I sit at about 2100 RPM while at highway cruise...thanks to my 4.11 gearing. In town I rarely exceed 1800 RPM.

While pulling our fifth wheel, pulling a grade downshifted out of OD I might maintain ~2600 RPM for a short period, but that's about as high as my engine ever sees.

So, I assume based on this discussion that there is a such thing as "too much" HHO. If I left the system on 100% at all times (generating, say, 7LPM) is it going to overwhelm the engine at low RPM's or have negative effects?
600 RPM x 6.5L = 3,900L.... 7LPM(HHO)/3,900L = .0017948%.... Doubtful.

Ok, so aside from the continuos high amp draw, is there any downside to simply leaving the entire system energized under all RPM/load/speed combinations? Again, if I use the already installed relay for my glowplug override system I'll leave it connected to the toggle switch inside the cab (dash mounted) and if I anticipate a period of idling, slow speed, or stop/go traffic I can simply flip the relay and kill the HHO system manually. A little manual intervention isn't a big deal to me - I drive a tractor trailer for a living so constantly flipping buttons and switches (blah blah blah) is second nature to me.

As for the alternator, based on my observations of it's output it has no problem making most of it's rated capacity at low RPM's - the alternators on the 6.5's are equipped with a fairly small pulley which keeps their RPM's up even at low RPM's.

At some point I could find a simple boost activated switch that would energize the system at (say) 1PSI which would signify the truck is at least moving under some load..but not sure they make boost switches with calibrations that low.

[myoldyourgold]

Mark just to make sure there is no confusion. When I sad you would be making 4 to 4.5 lpm I was under the assumption that you were going to build a unit with bipolar plates. That would be the best under those circumstance, if even that. If you follow Bio's unipolar setup then you will get the same or close to the same as Bio. You seemed to be undecided. As Boi says unipolar rocks.

[Oshawapilot]

Mark just to make sure there is no confusion. When I sad you would be making 4 to 4.5 lpm I was under the assumption that you were going to build a unit with bipolar plates. That would be the best under those circumstance, if even that. If you follow Bio's unipolar setup then you will get the same or close to the same as Bio. You seemed to be undecided. As Boi says unipolar rocks.

Well, at this point I've no reason to not follow the advice you guys are giving, so lets go unipolar!

I will preface that by saying that the difference between unipolar and bipolar is still unclear to me though. It's all in the plate design/wiring I'm assuming?