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Thread: pre ignition, engine damage

  1. #1
    homersimpson30 Guest

    pre ignition, engine damage

    A coworker told me that hho might cause pre igniton cuz its so flamable, and cause engine damage? Possible??

  2. #2
    donsimpson12 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by homersimpson30 View Post
    A coworker told me that hho might cause pre igniton cuz its so flamable, and cause engine damage? Possible??
    Timing should be a concern if your pumping a lot of HHO in... It does explode faster than fuel. That's why timing on engines are before TDC (Top Dead Center).... On a carburetored engine with a lot of HHO, it would be easy to retard the timing a bit.. On a computer car, you'll need to control the computer. Firing too soon will explode the HHO and then your piston is fighting the thrust of the HHO explosion which will surely effect the efficiency.

    I've been dinking around with a prototype system, but I really think I need to set this thing up on an old school engine for optimal performance tweaks and ease..

  3. #3
    wlf89 Guest
    could just do like i do put a switch inside the cab to turn it on or off and about a minute before you turn the engine off turn the hho off and let it all burn out of the engine then you will know for sure it aint going to hurt the engine when you start it

  4. #4
    donsimpson12 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by wlf89 View Post
    could just do like i do put a switch inside the cab to turn it on or off and about a minute before you turn the engine off turn the hho off and let it all burn out of the engine then you will know for sure it aint going to hurt the engine when you start it
    That only clears out the HHO and removes any moisture from the exhaust and engine... Imagine pre-detonation as spark knock.. you'll get it under load.. and it burns the top of the piston and valves..

    ;-)

  5. #5
    homersimpson30 Guest

    so can it happen?

    so is this theory possible. can it some how ignite in the cylinder when its not suppose to?

  6. #6
    EltonBrandd Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by homersimpson30 View Post
    so is this theory possible. can it some how ignite in the cylinder when its not suppose to?
    The gas will only ignite with a spark, especially as diluted as it is by the time it reaches the combustion chamber. And if it did knock most engines will retard the timing to rectify the knock. My car doesn't utilize knock sensors and I have never had a problem so far. If I use regular 87 octane fuel at sea level my car pings, I have to run 91 octane to prevent that. I'm going to switch back to 87 to see if the hho will help burn all the fuel at once to see if eliminates the pinging. As far as pre-detonation goes I would only be worried about that if I was running my timing way to advanced.

  7. #7
    scirockett Guest
    pre-ignition and detonation (pings) are two completely different conditions.

    pre-ignition is a severe condition where the af mixture is ignited BEFORE the spark. This will kill a motor FAST. This is typically caused by excessively low octane (ignition upon compression) or a hot spot that causes burn before the spark (metal debris in the chamber, carbon build up, wrong spark plugs..). This condition would exist with or without HHO.

    detonation or pinging is an anomolie that occurs when the mixure is ignited by the spark plug, but is not a clean burn, rather could be multple burns, and causes the piston to rattle which is the noise you hear. Engines can withstand detonation to a certain degree, however severe detonation under load and high boost can blow up pistons quickly. Causes of detonation are low octane/ high compression, too much timing advance (especially under boost which also increases compression), or a lean mixture (plus others i'm not thinking of now).

    Watching people lean out their mixtures without knowning or metering the correct amount of HHO to compensate for this lean condition, I would expect to see some detonation. Hell, with a lean mixture, maybe the LACK of detonation is proof (well, partial proof) that HHO is helping the burn!!

    Also, there are many variables when HHO is mixed with gasoline, but when HHO is the only source of fuel, reports have shown ignition timing needs to be retarded to TDC because of how freekin fast HHO burns.

    I'm still trying to figure out two things:
    1) how HHO effects octane rating of the fuel
    2) how HHO effects the AF mixture.

    I have seen references where universities have done studies that show HHO helps lean conditions, but the reports didn't have any data. If anyone has seen any info on how HHO effects either octane or mixture, i would LOVE to see it!!!

  8. #8
    donsimpson12 Guest
    SciRockett... Very good info and I agee with all you said.. ;-) Not that it matters.. lol... but...

    I also have read conflicting stories about HHO helping lean conditions, ect..

    Some of what I've read simply doesn't make any sense..

    Helping out lean conditions, agree, but with engine tunings that are conducive for both fuel and HHO...

    I also don't get the threads about HHO raising the Octane levels..
    High Octane fuels (racing fuels) do a couple of things..
    Reduces spark knock (Timing / High compression)
    Lower flash point and burn speed. (Which is why higher performance engines require racing fuels)

    Without getting all sideways over fuel octanes and burns, I'm saying that HHO has an increased flash point and burn speed. Much faster the fuel. (Thus the need to retard the ignition timing) So I'm a little lost when I read that HHO raises the overall octane level.. ???

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    11

    How HHO effects octane

    The octane rating of gasoline tells you how much the fuel can be compressed before it spontaneously ignites. When gas ignites by compression rather than because of the spark from the spark plug, it causes knocking in the engine. Knocking can damage an engine, so it is not something you want to have happening. Lower-octane gas (like "regular" 87-octane gasoline) can handle the least amount of compression before igniting.
    *Hydrogen does not fit well into the normal definitions of octane number. It has a very high Research Octane Number (RON) and a low Motor Octane Number (MON) so that it has low knock resistance in practice, due to its low ignition energy (primarily due to its low dissociation energy) and extremely high flame speed. Basically this means that hydrogen will ignite easier and have a lower octane rating at higher rpms and higher compression ratios.

    That being said, hydrogen has been reported to have an octane rating of 130, and the fact that some people claim that hho made their knock go away would seem to support this.

    However... HHO is 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen, so the octane rating and how your engine reacts, one would likely have to take into account the oxygen content as well.

    Also one must keep in mind than not all HHO generators produce HHO of the same proportions. As the atoms are separated by the electrolysis. Hydrogen bubbles begin to collect on the (- Anode) plates, and Oxygen collects on the (+ Cathode) plates. So 1/3 of the gas produced is Oxygen, and the other 2/3 is Hydrogen.

    Octane aside HHO does make the gas burn more quickly so the more HHO you add in the more you will need to retard the timing.

    what I would like to say in summary is: when injecting HHO, less is more.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1

    lean condition

    Being aware or a excessive lean condition is very important. A lean condition will cause things to melt. Racers would check their spark plugs to read the condition of their fuel mixture and timming...as it has a direst result on the plugs and leaves sign of how well the engine is burning fuel.

    You can find a complete set of pictures and it will explain each condition and causes on the web. worth reading.

    HHo is a higher octain fuel and burns fast...that what if you want to run on stright HHo you must set the spark AFTER TDC not before. With racing fuels you are able to run more timming in most cases however it depends on the Altitude and other factores as well such as compression and flame travel. Ping is pre-ingetion of the fuel cause from low octain and or hot spots in the combustion chamber.

    just to touch on it here. read more on the web...but beware of a too lean condition...hopefull you'll destore your spark plugs before any other damage is done.

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