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Thread: Need some expert advice with a Jeep 4.0

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,418
    Here is a good example of an excellent build and no results. Now in order to get results I think that most would agree it is not as simple as just building or buying a good kit and sticking in a vehicle.

    There are numerous things to take into consideration in tuning the vehicle to accept the hydrogen, oxygen, and a number of other gases in the mix. I guess the place to start is at the beginning.

    Bio, is right we need to know the details of your reactor, please include the input and exit port sizes and plate preparation. We also need to know the voltage at the reactor and the gauge of wire, and the approximate length of the wire from the source to the reactor. Does the ground go back to the battery or is it chassis grounded? The list goes on but I will start there. Once the basics are understood we can look at the rest. Most of this along with some additional information will establish how efficient the reactor is or could be. If you are using a considerable amount of HP to make the HHO then this will be contributing to no gains and should be addressed first. Burning out the 45 amp PWM is disturbing unless the unit was faulty.

    The build again is excellent.

    Bio what do you recommend for guys like me who are dyslexic and know that proof reading doesn't help much. Thank God for computers but they still can not help me the from and form's though, and hundreds more. LOL
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

    ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha .

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,418
    I see I missed your last post. Well the reactor is a steam generator. This is the reason you burned out your PWM. Thermal run away. I suggest you take the reactor apart and change it to a 22 plate -nnnnnn+nnnnnn-nnnnnn+ or 19 plate -nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+. Just do not expect 5 LPM at 20 or 30 amps. I have a problem with 1/16" gaskets but they should work. I would suggest 1/8 but that would be an expensive change because of all the holes etc. I would suggest you media blast the plates when you have them apart and passivate them. You then should be able to make enough gas at 25 to 30 amps to see some gain in MPG with the use of an EFIE. There could be some problems with the remote installation because of the distance from the battery if that is not done right though.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

    ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha .

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Rimouski, Québec, CANADA
    Posts
    212
    MntGoaxXJ,

    I suggest to take seriously the recommendations (media blasted, insulate hole and passivation) of MyoldYourGold and other mentors. You can believe my recent experiences. Without them, I would still be trying to run my reactor

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    25
    Any suggestions or experiences are read, reread and believe me when I say, graciously accepted. I read through a number of forums before embarking on this adventure to gain knowledge on others experiences and of course, mistakes. So far I haven't blown up......

    So the wiring has an arming switch that is gear select activated and a push to start switch. Once the key switch is turned off the system disarms. And of course there is the customary check valve.

    I used some 4 gauge wire (+&-) from the battery back to the unit.
    The unit itself is wired with 8 gauge where power is flowing.
    The remainder of monitoring and switches is 16-22.
    Water temp stays at 140-155.
    Electrolyte 10 tbls/gallon
    1 each 1/2" ID tubing to feed base of cell
    2 each 1/2" ID tubing to feed gas up to the reservoir
    1 1/4" tube to transport gas to engine
    gas is introduced to the engine between the air cleaner and throttle body.
    Electrolyte usage is roughly 1/2 pint per 400 miles.
    Running voltage indicated at the unit 13.5-14.

    Everything seemed to be running fine on the bench and I seasoned the plates for 48 hours (weekend) with distilled and later used some KOH to get the cell rolling. All the power equipment was running perfectly.

    After installation the elec power system started to have problems. First one of the cooling fans quit. (replaced) Then the power solenoid quit. (replaced)
    Then both fans quit (replaced) Then the PWM quit. I gave up.

    So now its a matter of restacking the plates and figuring out just what the heck is happening electrically speaking. What I'm also hearing from you guys is that I might be better with a second battery nearer the unit. OK this I can do.

    But what is on my priority list is a PWM that will do the job and not break the bank. Plus the fact of how much power is required to generate enough "H" to make an MPG difference. I was under the "impression" that I could stay under 25 amps and develop plenty of gas. But for the first time in all my readings, you guys referenced about "steam", which makes perfect sense.

    I'm all ears gentlemen......


  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NorthEast Fla.
    Posts
    988
    Quote Originally Posted by MtnGoatXJ View Post
    Any suggestions or experiences are read, reread and believe me when I say, graciously accepted. I read through a number of forums before embarking on this adventure to gain knowledge on others experiences and of course, mistakes. So far I haven't blown up......

    So the wiring has an arming switch that is gear select activated and a push to start switch. Once the key switch is turned off the system disarms. And of course there is the customary check valve.

    I used some 4 gauge wire (+&-) from the battery back to the unit.
    The unit itself is wired with 8 gauge where power is flowing.
    The remainder of monitoring and switches is 16-22.
    Water temp stays at 140-155.
    Electrolyte 10 tbls/gallon
    1 each 1/2" ID tubing to feed base of cell
    2 each 1/2" ID tubing to feed gas up to the reservoir
    1 1/4" tube to transport gas to engine
    gas is introduced to the engine between the air cleaner and throttle body.
    Electrolyte usage is roughly 1/2 pint per 400 miles.
    Running voltage indicated at the unit 13.5-14.

    Everything seemed to be running fine on the bench and I seasoned the plates for 48 hours (weekend) with distilled and later used some KOH to get the cell rolling. All the power equipment was running perfectly.

    After installation the elec power system started to have problems. First one of the cooling fans quit. (replaced) Then the power solenoid quit. (replaced)
    Then both fans quit (replaced) Then the PWM quit. I gave up.

    So now its a matter of restacking the plates and figuring out just what the heck is happening electrically speaking. What I'm also hearing from you guys is that I might be better with a second battery nearer the unit. OK this I can do.

    But what is on my priority list is a PWM that will do the job and not break the bank. Plus the fact of how much power is required to generate enough "H" to make an MPG difference. I was under the "impression" that I could stay under 25 amps and develop plenty of gas. But for the first time in all my readings, you guys referenced about "steam", which makes perfect sense.

    I'm all ears gentlemen......

    MGXJ,
    Good morning. Thank you for the run down on your system, now we can make some progress! You have enough plate area that you can skip a PWM altogether if you do as Myoldyourgold advises and have your plates sand (media) blasted. This increases plate emissive area at least four-fold and will allow you to use full strength electrolyte which will greatly reduce the resistance within your reactor and raise your gas output by a significant amount. PWM's really are only necessary on systems that have not been designed properly, or else are used in conjunction with throttle movement through mechanical or electronic linkage to vary production based on throttle position, which is not a bad idea if you can rig it. You MUST reassemble the reactor in a
    -nnnnnn+nnnnnn- configuration as was also suggested. We (mentors) still get aggravated and shake our heads at the configurations being touted on Ebay as "The Best!". These things are made by folks that are good and careful builders, but don't seem to have a clue as to the the relationship between plate area, current density and electrical demand, or voltage division & resistance heating, or the role that electrolyte conductance plays. It has taken me years and years to begin to see how all these thing inter-relate and I am not as far along in depth of understanding as others here but I could easily manufacture a much more efficient and lpm targeted reactor than most of the fly-by-nighter's out there.
    So, take that thing apart and do the mods, look up the "passivation" threads when you get your plates back from media blasting and prepare them properly, you'll be glad you did. From this point on, others will have to assist you with your engine electronics because I'm an old-school diesel guy, and it only takes diesel fuel, a good ground, and one little red positive wire for my engine to run-
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    25
    OK those plates were smooth and shiney, no wonder..........

    I've bead blasted the plates and reconfigured to -NNNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNNN+

    The odd center is due to hardware limitations.

    Here's the big question.
    How should I proceed with developing the electrolyte?
    Keep adding KOH or NaOH until I reach a given amperage draw?
    Or just add a small amount and run it?

    I looked up passivation and found a little to gather a better understanding of what/ why and how.
    I did locate orange/lemon powder at a local micro-brewery. Couldn't I just rub a lemon on the plates?

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NorthEast Fla.
    Posts
    988
    Quote Originally Posted by MtnGoatXJ View Post
    OK those plates were smooth and shiney, no wonder..........

    I've bead blasted the plates and reconfigured to -NNNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNNN+

    The odd center is due to hardware limitations.

    Here's the big question.
    How should I proceed with developing the electrolyte?
    Keep adding KOH or NaOH until I reach a given amperage draw?
    Or just add a small amount and run it?

    I looked up passivation and found a little to gather a better understanding of what/ why and how.
    I did locate orange/lemon powder at a local micro-brewery. Couldn't I just rub a lemon on the plates?
    MGXJ,
    Good deal on the bead blasting, but scrounge around and locate one piece of 316L S.S. to make that missing center stack neutral out of, or else pull one neutral from each of the two end stacks. The stacks all need to be equal. Five neutrals will put you at 2.3V per cell, not too bad, a lot of folks run 5 neutrals and think it's the cat's fanny.. It just wont be as efficient as 6 and wont make quite as much gas. Since you are trying to limit your amp draw, when you mix your KOH you might try mixing it at half strength, that's 860ml of distilled water and 140gr (5oz) of KOH.

    Of course you can rub a lemon on the plates! It wont work worth a hoot, but you can do it... Passivate the plates (after washing thoroughly) with a 10% solution of citric acid & distilled water @ 160F for at least two hours, rinse with distilled water only and let air dry, or if you have access to an oxygen tank, hang them in a tape sealed cardboard box (or whatever you have handy) and let them dry in that oxygen rich environment.

    Last thing, and I know you're not going to care for this, you really ought to go up to 0 gauge wire on your run from the battery. You are losing a lot of power to resistance with only 8 gauge.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    25
    Bio,
    Many thanks for your replies and knowledge share.

    Half strength solution formula has me perplexed. At first I thought it might be a typo.......860ml = 0.2 gals?

    My mixes to date to make a 20 amp draw (with a PWM) has only been 10-12 tablespoons to a gallon of DW.

    I'm not questioning but just double checking

    FYI the cable run is copper 1/4' dia to the reactor. I think that's 4ga. The reactor is wired with 8ga.

    Oh and more plates are on the way.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    NorthEast Fla.
    Posts
    988
    Sorry,
    I figured you had been reading around in here and came across mention somewhere of 28%KOH by weight. THAT is full strength electrolyte. No insult at all intended my friend, but what you have been using is considered very weak. But- it was necessary because your plates were not configured properly. Now that you will be running a proper design, you will see a good increase in the amount of real (dry) HHO you make, and you will probably see your amp draw go up as well because you do have a fairly good sized reactor.

    BTW- It's totally OK to question- it's how you learn and it makes me think twice about what I'm spouting here.

    Cable run sounds like it may be alright- feel it after 5min, 10min, 30min.. You are going to be pulling more amps now.

    Good news on the extra plates.

    Keep us in the loop!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    25
    No worries. Not the first time I was told my juice was weak....

    Gotta read more too!

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