HHO - The Real Story...

[myoldyourgold]

Mr, Chapman, I am going to try and be constructive here. First it would be helpful if you could post some pictures of your setup. This would give us a much clear picture so to speak.

There will be other very respectable knowledgeable people that might disagree with me on this but I would suggest you drop your electrolyte to 2% by weight and work up from there and do not use a PWM. You need just a very little HHO for this engine especially since you can not adjust anything. Somewhere between 250 mlpm to 500 mlpm. This will also bring up the efficiency your reactor. You should be able to do at least a few more tests before you throw in the rag. I would not be so persistent if I was not absolutely sure that some gain is possible. Please do not take this as a personal attack but your claims that this is all bogus, when a lot of us know for a fact it isn't is hard to take.

RustyLugNut, I posted this not seeing yours. Excellent post.

[TimCollins]

WOW what a thread… I do see validity in one of his points. To ‘prove’ HHO introduction into the fuel system by itself has any ‘real’ effect at all (good or bad) we have to perform a simple test. Using a dyno run a car with HHO then without making any other adjustments, run the same test without HHO injection. If HHO gas by itself is really doing anything at all (and not the electronics trickery) that test should prove it and put to rest the debate forever. Correct? Surely there have been at least two or three reputable institutions (not HHO vendors and not individuals) that have performed this test (A university, auto manufacturer, government or impartial study, etc…)? I think that would remove the notion that HHO is magical and move it into the realm of how does each person really make it work for them. Until we have the unbiased dyno results I think it is very wise for all of us to be extremely skeptical whether the HHO gas itself is doing anything at all given all the other required adjustments. Personally I enjoy the science of it and I continue to work on HHO as a hobby, but I am not sold on the simple suggestion that adding HHO to my trucks fuel system will improve my millage. Finally, this is not a new technology so where is the proof this user is asking for? There should be tons of it out there right? Do ‘reputable’ unbiased dyno type testing results exist? If not, then considering the age of the science we should all be a bit skeptical as to whether the HHO or the electronics is really causing improvements... Please dont banish me for my views at this time LOL... I do enjoy working on this as a hobby...

[lhazleton]

Damn Rusty, where've you been? Thought you fell off the end of the earth!

[RustyLugNut]

The Mythbuster and Popular Mechanics "TESTS" aside, you will not see a scramble to test HHO systems on Dyna-mometers. Each system on each car needs time to tune. Have you priced the hourly rate on Dyno time? Most tinkerers cannot afford the several hundred to several thousand dollar price tag. Sure, you can get a 40 dollar power pull that gives you a power curve at full throttle and climbing rpms. But this is not what we are looking for in testing an HHO application. Multiple pulls at multiple load/rpm and throttle settings are needed to "map" the results of HHO effects. If an HHO aficionado has already determined an ideal setting to test the effects of his system, it would have been after countless hours tuning his set up on a dyno! As such, seat of the pants dynos are what most can afford, and that is what they use.

Why aren't manufacturers looking into this? They probably have and have discounted it based on how small the gains are for all the trouble to match an HHO system to each application and to make it fool proof ( fools do operate vehicles ). Manufactures work to make money. HHO systems are not profitable in comparison to VVT, stop-start and hybrid systems, to name a few. En mass, these improvements are solid, warrant-able devices. HHO devices are finicky and slow reacting. After millions of research dollars expended on a new vehicle model, HHO systems would not meet the economic requirements of manufacturing.

University research is largely Grant Driven. Unless someone is providing a grant whose scope might include HHO research, Universities will not do the research.

But, individuals, groups and colleges are doing some research on HHO and it is starting to compile. Europe, America, Australian and Far Eastern research papers are starting to pop up. The reading is sticky and technical, and may not be your cup of tea, but it is there.

It all boils down to money. Electrolysis HHO generators pale in comparison to other technologies for increasing internal combustion efficiency and decreasing emissions.

This should not stop the individual from tinkering with it and applying it to his or her own vehicle or engine.

[RustyLugNut]

Just could not find time to post. Family, work and my own research get in the way. That's life.

[myoldyourgold]

A university, auto manufacturer, government

You can take these off the list of impartial!! I have seen tests by all of the above showing how it will not work. They all have giant flaws in them. Everything from glass jars to crazy reactors that are using 500 plus watts to make less than a liter not to mention who pays for these tests. The real problem is there are so many variables. Just the moisture in the air could mess up the the test and end up showing gains which were not there on a dry day. I was hoping the Mr. Chapman would spend some more time and exhaust all avenues before he gave up. Lets say he did get a gain then I guess nobody is going to believe him either. This is a cruel world and I can say one thing, the farmers and truckers I know that are running systems and saving tons of money quietly are good enough for me. I think in the end everyone is going to have to prove it to themselves. There are dyno tests out there that show some gain but even they are suspect because of the poor systems they are running. There are lots of smog tests that show cleaner exhaust and this shows that there is a more complete burn which must have some gain that goes along with it. California CARB has even licensed some showing reduction in pollution. A better burn has to mean better mileage. How much is debatable. Every so often this comes up and because all the answers are still not there you end up throwing the baby out with the bath water. Keep digging/experimenting you will eventually find the answers. You have to remember that brute force is not the only way to brake the bonds.

[BioFarmer93]

Carter,
Frankly I think the timing on that little Onan diesel is advanced a bit. I can't really think of any other reason that Chris would not see at least some improvement.

Chris, could I have the year and model number of that engine please, I need to look a couple of things up. If you are basing your conclusion on a series of flawed tests then even though you may be following the scientific method in your testing, your testing is incomplete.

[myoldyourgold]

Gus, you could be right about the timing. I was under the impression that there was no adjustment available. If that is the case then my recommendation of decreasing the HHO would be the only way to go to find the sweat spot for both the engine and the reactor. If it is adjustable then that is a different ball game. It is still my opinion that he will need less than a LPM to show a gain but with retarded timing he could step it up.

[BioFarmer93]

Gus, you could be right about the timing. I was under the impression that there was no adjustment available. If that is the case then my recommendation of decreasing the HHO would be the only way to go to find the sweat spot for both the engine and the reactor. If it is adjustable then that is a different ball game. It is still my opinion that he will need less than a LPM to show a gain but with retarded timing he could step it up.

Carter,
I agree completely, if it's not adjustable then any increase at all in combustion speed is going to be working against him not for him, and finding the sweet spot is going to be near impossible- most likely not worth the effort for what will only be minimal gains in economy. It's almost like he deliberately choose the worst possible diesel candidate for his tests. We should turn him on to Ben's Amish clients with the sawmill and the stationary 6-71 screamin' Jimmy's. But I guess those dirty rotten lying old Amish guys can't be trusted to tell the truth either..

[myoldyourgold]

Did a simple search on youtube "dyno HHO test" and here is one I found. There is others.

Who really knows if these are real but I can not believe that everyone is lying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVQn4DKrn_w