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Thread: A New Feul useage control method!?!

  1. #1
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    A New Feul useage control method!?!

    Plain and simply Madsceintist's started controlling his Fuel Pump Voltage. By lowering the FPV with a Pulse Wave Modulator Madsceintist reports he was able to reduce fuel usage over 80% without dealing with EFIE's and computer issues. Basically i think this means unlimited control.

    This really seems like a great idea to me. I see some pros and not many cons.
    i think Madsceintist came up with a real winner here!


    I'm looking for some feedback on this idea
    . I may be missing something but to me this seems like a great discovery. E
    Even if closed loop i think this would work?

    So if we can list the pros and cons we can get a clear picture to the long term viability of this idea.
    When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius.
    When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot."

  2. #2
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    It works plain and simple. If you read my last couple posts I had mentioned there is yet a better way but its along the same lines. This was also mentioned before by ultra_efficient.
    Computer issue is over rated and a lot of the issues can be overcome by simple methods.
    Why does everybody seek to be compliant. I can never understand.

  3. #3
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    Cons

    I had to pay more attention to my controls at times than i did the road! My dash still has duct tape glue on it from mounting my panel with the gauges and switches.
    Its done right or its not done !
    Hail HHO.

  4. #4
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    Weapon_R, Roland, I have had no problems in testing with the injector signal. In fact just the reverse. It is expensive and the wiring is a nightmare unless you have a car that companies like AEM have made a harness for. I have an AEM piggy back controller and have tested vehicles using it to lean out things to achieve extreme mileage over the normal range of power requirements without affecting the computer. I used the AEM only because I found one cheap and could get tech support locally to prove that a very lean mixture with the right combinations could work. The problem is that the leaner you go the more HHO has to be created or the vehicle will not run, overheat, destroy itself, bla bla bla. The demand for HHO changes with power requirements and is not a consistent amount and must be controlled as much as possible to meet a range of requirements. This requires out of the box equipment to prevent lag time for example, when needing to accelerate quickly. Water injection, O3, and EGR regulation and increased HHO at the right time solves the problems but the system is very expensive and more complicated for the average guy to use or recoup his investment. If not done right and without the right safety monitors you can ruin an engine in less than 10 minutes of running and in extreme case in a couple minutes. It all comes back to making the HHO efficiently as possible and striking a balance in the cheapest way with no chance of ruining the engine.

    A number of people have tried playing with the fuel pump and based on the reports I have read, the results are all over the place. Most of the wide range of results are because of the methods used and inaccurate testing and measuring. I have not had time to do my own testing yet because I am not convinced that the computer will not be able to tell when lean conditions exist or is out of a specific range. I could be wrong though but no matter how you make it lean it will be picked up unless you are feeding the computer information that is required. With the right electronics that does not require an electrical engineer/pro tuner to install and tune you can achieve almost the same results and in some cases better with no risk to the engine. I will be testing some prototype electronics in the next few weeks which I believe will do exactly what we need and will report the results. The goal is to make good gains at a cost that makes sense.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

    ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha .

  5. #5
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    myoldyourgold

    I see you are quite busy. I have plans on using a Aem Fic to control fuel and timing or a megasquirt. Water injection is a proven method of getting low end torque but I am looking into water vapor injection due it lower water requirements. But I see you have been doing your research. As for the fuel pump and pwm most are not using the correct system hence the problems you have mentioned. Also in a fuel injected one only needs to tune to 2000-3000 rpm max and let stock ecu handle anything above that.
    Many ways to increase mileage hho is but one method.
    myoldyourgold I am very impressed with your work. Do you have access to a dyno for tuning?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madsceintist View Post
    I had to pay more attention to my controls at times than i did the road! My dash still has duct tape glue on it from mounting my panel with the gauges and switches.
    So is your constant attention with your fuel pump controls due to you trying to get max MPG?
    In other words if you were content with 25-40% MPG improvement, could the fuel pump mod be a hands off/set it & forget it mod ?
    When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius.
    When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot."

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoldyourgold View Post
    If not done right and without the right safety monitors you can ruin an engine in less than 10 minutes of running and in extreme case in a couple minutes. It all comes back to making the HHO efficiently as possible and striking a balance in the cheapest way with no chance of ruining the engine.
    .
    Would you say a Exhaust Temp gauge and alarm could prevent most all engine damage from this type of experimenting (extreme leaning of fuel)?

    Can we get damage from early detonation (To fast of a burn)? Is th ere any steps to take that would help us detect when this may be happening?
    When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius.
    When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot."

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by myoldyourgold View Post

    A number of people have tried playing with the fuel pump and based on the reports I have read, the results are all over the place. Most of the wide range of results are because of the methods used and inaccurate testing and measuring. I have not had time to do my own testing yet because I am not convinced that the computer will not be able to tell when lean conditions exist or is out of a specific range. I could be wrong though but no matter how you make it lean it will be picked up unless you are feeding the computer information that is required. With the right electronics that does not require an electrical engineer/pro tuner to install and tune you can achieve almost the same results and in some cases better with no risk to the engine. I will be testing some prototype electronics in the next few weeks which I believe will do exactly what we need and will report the results. The goal is to make good gains at a cost that makes sense.
    I wish i more knowledge about automotive systems but I don't. I defer to you auto mechanics on these matters.
    I would think that even if the cpu sees the lean condition it MIGHT not be a issue. Seeing that it would probable just defalt to closed loop, or go to full rich condition. But If the Fuel pressure is not there, would it even matter if it was in full rich?


    I would think a O2 EFIE would be enough to keep the computer from seeing a lean condition.
    When you're one step ahead of the crowd you're a genius.
    When you're two steps ahead, you're a crackpot."

  9. #9
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    I see you are quite busy. I have plans on using a Aem Fic to control fuel and timing or a megasquirt. Water injection is a proven method of getting low end torque but I am looking into water vapor injection due it lower water requirements. But I see you have been doing your research. As for the fuel pump and pwm most are not using the correct system hence the problems you have mentioned. Also in a fuel injected one only needs to tune to 2000-3000 rpm max and let stock ecu handle anything above that.
    Many ways to increase mileage hho is but one method.
    myoldyourgold I am very impressed with your work. Do you have access to a dyno for tuning?
    No dyno just a set of rollers at a friendly smog station that I can use free with his sniffer. I am afraid I am very old school and tune by ear and trial and error with help from some propriety information. There are as you said many other methods but I have found by combining them you get mega returns. Just taping all major current cables with aluminum tape in a vehicle gives a measurable gain by blocking magnet fields interacting with each other. Would not have believed it if I had not tested it. The list is quite long.

    The clue in water injection for maximum results is vapor as you stated but more than that is ionized vapor. That is why I mentioned I am working on a better water injection system than is available. So little time. Today is my day off to get my thoughts back on track but have ended up on the computer. LOL

    There is nothing impressive about my work but have had a lot of help by people who are much smarter than I am!! People like Gus (Bio) has been extremely helpful to correct me when I am headed in the wrong direction!! and help in a lot of other areas too. Can not thank him enough. There are a number of people who have tested various things for me and saved me a lot of time and I thank them too. In the electronic area I must thank hhoelectronics. An excellent knowledgeable and trustworthy real gentleman!! So the list goes on and on. The only reason it might be impressive is because of all the help.

    Would you say a Exhaust Temp gauge and alarm could prevent most all engine damage from this type of experimenting (extreme leaning of fuel)?

    Can we get damage from early detonation (To fast of a burn)? Is th ere any steps to take that would help us detect when this may be happening?
    I use an Exhaust Temp gauge only for tuning. There will not be any fast burn if the mixture is lean enough and the right amount of HHO is present. The burn rate comes back to a normal burn rate and is what tuning is all about. Unfortunately this is different on every vehicle and I am working on how to get it right with just simple little things. Not there yet. Still a lot of work to do and so little time. It will be a while before I have it all nailed down. I use my ear and feel the loss or gain in HP/performance and then look at what the sniffer is reading. Then based on some propriety information make the right adjustments either adding more fuel or less and adjusting the timing to get it right. This same information gives me a starting safe point. This is why you need to have good control. It is not necessary to have compete control unless you want the last few drops out of things. That is at least what I have experienced in my testing.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

    ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha .

  10. #10
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    I wish i more knowledge about automotive systems but I don't. I defer to you auto mechanics on these matters.
    I would think that even if the cpu sees the lean condition it MIGHT not be a issue. Seeing that it would probable just defalt to closed loop, or go to full rich condition. But If the Fuel pressure is not there, would it even matter if it was in full rich?


    I would think a O2 EFIE would be enough to keep the computer from seeing a lean condition.
    Roland, even though my knowledge is very dated like I have more knowledge of carburetors and mechanical fuel injection than all you younger guys but am limited on electronic fuel injection. There was no such thing when I took auto mechanics. It is just me applying some of the same technology of mechanical fuel injection to the electric injection that is getting me into trouble. Slowing down the pump should not change pressure except when demand is more than supply. If pressure is reduced then the actual spray of the injector would change making it less efficient. I can not get my head around how this would actually be a benefit. Maybe the smarter ones can explain it. Low pressure reduces the spray to a dribble. That is bad in a lot of things especially in old dudes. LOL Unless you change the pressure regulator it will be starving at high demand but at idle would build up pressure.....well you get the idea. If it changes volume and pressure remains the same with out changing the open time(pulse width) of the injector, this will also cause problems. I guess I will leave this to some of the rest of you to explain. I do know if your fuel pump is not working properly can result in reduced mileage.

    You might as well stick to the EFIE and forget the pump if you have to add it back in. I see very little or no benefit unless you change the pulse width which has nothing to do with the pump directly but is controlled by the computer after taking into consideration some or all of the sensors. Cold start up wider pulse width (rich) and as it warms up to operating temperature the pulse with gets narrower. Then when you accelerate it get wider again. By messing with the pump changes none of this in a way that I can see will help. I am still willing to learn if someone can explain how it would benefit.

    I failed to mention that I always check the injection pressure before I do any changes. If it is not in spec I first solve that problem before I try to lean anything out. If I do not do this it is almost impossible for me to get the expected results.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner. Liberty is a well-armed lamb."

    ONE Liter per minute per 10 amps which just isn't possible Ha Ha .

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