A New Feul useage control method!?!

[myoldyourgold]

Just to clarify. Fuel demand changes with load and rpm etc. Fuel pressure is adjusted to lean fuel within a small range for testing purpose only. So I may lower fuel pressure and drive or rev car to 1500 rpm not above. Above that and the engine will starve. Not very practical for daily driving but do able.
Best approach it to adjust fuel pressure based on demand. As demand increases so does fuel. As myoldyourgold has already said currently the is a costly venture but there may be a away around this. The technology is already available.

Just in case there is a misunderstanding here and with other post I have made on this subject, I want to make it clear to get REALLY GOOD GAINS will upset the computer throw a code or worse unless you use electronics. The object is run a supper lean mixture with very little excess heat. The computer is smart enough to detect this. If you want to put up with a car that drives like dogy doo or have small gains making it more drivable then this is an option. To be honest in some vehicles you will get the same small gains by just adding a small amount of HHO and nothing else other than resetting the computer a few times and on some weekly. If you want something really worthwhile you are going to have to deal with the computer. End of story.

[Weapon_R]

Just in case there is a misunderstanding here and with other post I have made on this subject, I want to make it clear to get REALLY GOOD GAINS will upset the computer throw a code or worse unless you use electronics. The object is run a supper lean mixture with very little excess heat. The computer is smart enough to detect this. If you want to put up with a car that drives like dogy doo or have small gains making it more drivable then this is an option. To be honest in some vehicles you will get the same small gains by just adding a small amount of HHO and nothing else other than resetting the computer a few times and on some weekly. If you want something really worthwhile you are going to have to deal with the computer. End of story.

I agree if you want a drivable vehicle. As I have said this method only used for testing.
Beat computer by simply unplugging o2 sensor and force open loop. If vehicle does not got into limp mode your all set.
Tweak away.

[Weapon_R]

The patent I posted is owned by Ford.

Silly me. Didn't look that far. Lol

[madman]

My understanding of engines esp. this newer stuff (obd2) is basic. Most of the computer stuff gets complicated. I do not see fuel pressure control doing any good. I think the amount of fuel being reduced is needed. The injectors need to stay open for a shorter time or fire less often.

1) what are all the variables that affect the amount of fuel delivered?

2) What is avaliable for a resonable price that can control #1 ?

Did not mean to hyjack the thread but I would really like to get some basics on the fuel thing.

Thanks,

Madman

[Madsceintist]

What I meant was that the pressure if below the cracking pressure of the regulator, then there will be no pressure to regulate.

Any amount of fuel in the system with the pump running WILL create pressure! The regulator works from 0-set release, not set pressure-back. And its not just pressure but volume as well. I put a super charger on a 03 mercury marauder 4.6 dohc engine, intercooler, injectors, chip, gauges, the works. Yet the car would nose dive coming out of second gear. Fuel pressure was in spec, everything checked out time and time again. And it still nose-dived. Just a hunch, we put dual high volume pumps side by side in tank, and sure enough, it launched and kept the nose high. That car was AMAZING to drive.
High pressure or low doesn't mean high volume or low! I read that high volume at very low pressure aerates the fuel. Which didn't make much sense to me, but I'm just digging into this aspect of these things.

[Weapon_R]

Any amount of fuel in the system with the pump running WILL create pressure! The regulator works from 0-set release, not set pressure-back. And its not just pressure but volume as well. I put a super charger on a 03 mercury marauder 4.6 dohc engine, intercooler, injectors, chip, gauges, the works. Yet the car would nose dive coming out of second gear. Fuel pressure was in spec, everything checked out time and time again. And it still nose-dived. Just a hunch, we put dual high volume pumps side by side in tank, and sure enough, it launched and kept the nose high. That car was AMAZING to drive.
High pressure or low doesn't mean high volume or low! I read that high volume at very low pressure aerates the fuel. Which didn't make much sense to me, but I'm just digging into this aspect of these things.

Madsceintist thank you for that info. Something to look into.

[Roland Jacques]

the pump(which has a check valve to hold a minimal pressure), then to have a fully adjustable regulator on demand. Your not limiting the supply of fuel by reducing the pressure, just reducing the pressure, however you do limit the supply if there is no fuel!

This is NOT correct. A check valve can hold a minimal internal pump pressure, but that has nothing to do with output pressure (system pressure). The pump does not, and cannot hold a minimum output pressure,no pump can . System pressure is always dependent upon resistant/restriction. In this case it's the injectors and regulator/relief valve.

High pressure or low doesn't mean high volume or low!

Yes and no, as far as the fuel system goes, yes this is true. But as far as the fuel pump goes, there is a direct relationship with pump speed,pressure, & volume.
As for the fuel system it depends on how you lower the pressure. And the entire system configuration & demand requirements...
Lowering the voltage to a pump, WILL lower it's volume capacity but maybe not below the systems requirements.

If your pump, @14 volts is rated at 60 PSI and 0.5 GPM then that is the max it can put out. But if your regulator is adjusted to 40 psi. The injector's see 40 psi and can draw 0.5 GPM.

Lowering the voltage (slowing the pump) with voltage control, to say 35 PSI, will make the max GPM go down also, for the sake of this conversation lets just say to 0.35GPM.
If WOT require 4.5GPM to meet demand then your system will fall short and you will notice the lack of fuel volume.
But If WOT require only 3.5GPM to meet demand then your system run fine, and you could say that lowering the pressure did not lower (needed) volume.

[Madsceintist]

[QUOTE=Roland Jacques;48641]This is NOT correct. A check valve can hold a minimal internal pump pressure, but that has nothing to do with output pressure (system pressure). The pump does not, and cannot hold a minimum output pressure,no pump can . System pressure is always dependent upon resistant/restriction. In this case it's the injectors and regulator/relief valve.





I wasn't saying that the pumps check valve holds up the pressure while it's producing, but when it's NOT producing. When you shut your car off the check valve(a ball bearing style, some diaphragm) falls into place to keep the fuel from draining to keep the system primed and slightly pressurized. Different manufactures use different methods of this, but it's generally the same principal.

[Madsceintist]

Quote from Roland;
Yes and no, as far as the fuel system goes, yes this is true. But as far as the fuel pump goes, there is a direct relationship with pump speed,pressure, & volume.
As for the fuel system it depends on how you lower the pressure. And the entire system configuration & demand requirements...
Lowering the voltage to a pump, WILL lower it's volume capacity but maybe not below the systems requirements.

If your pump, @14 volts is rated at 60 PSI and 0.5 GPM then that is the max it can put out. But if your regulator is adjusted to 40 psi. The injector's see 40 psi and can draw 0.5 GPM.

Lowering the voltage (slowing the pump) with voltage control, to say 35 PSI, will make the max GPM go down also, for the sake of this conversation lets just say to 0.35GPM.
If WOT require 4.5GPM to meet demand then your system will fall short and you will notice the lack of fuel volume.
But If WOT require only 3.5GPM to meet demand then your system run fine, and you could say that lowering the pressure did not lower (needed) volume.[/QUOTE]

...........
A high pressure pump has different veins than a high volume pump, and a different winding for the motor itself. You can use the same voltage with either but will produce different flow rates. Yes pressure and volume are related in the sense that the pump is used to do both, but not the same thing. Your pressure is directly related to the restriction not volume!

[myoldyourgold]

I think we need to go back to auto mechanics 101 but the problem with that is that in my case there were only mechanical pumps and the few electric pumps which were point operated. Not many of you will understand that. LOL I have taken the liberty to put together the basics that I have collected in my research over the years and even though some of it is my own and not direct quotes a lot of it is and I did not save where I collected the information from to give credit where credit is due. Sorry about that but I think my notes will help in understanding why I think electronics are necessary and the best way to go in a lot of cases if not all.



This is a schematic of a high-pressure fuel pump and is called a roller cell pump, with the fuel entering the pump and being compressed by rotating cells which force it through the pump at a high pressure. The pump can produce a pressure of 8 bar (120 psi) with a delivery rate of approximately 4 to 5 LPM. Within the pump is a pressure relief valve that lifts off its seat at 8 bar to arrest the pressure if a blockage in the filter or fuel lines or elsewhere causes it to become obstructed. The other end of the pump (output) is home to a non-return valve which, when the voltage to the pump is removed, closes the return to the tank and maintains pressure within the system. The normal operating pressure within this system is approximately 2 bar (30 psi) but this can vary, at which the current draw on the pump is 3 to 5 amps. Fuel passing across the fuel pump's armature is subjected to sparks and arcing; this sounds quite dangerous, but the absence of oxygen means that there will not be an explosion! and helps to keep it cool.


The majority of fuel pumps fitted to today’s vehicles are fitted within the vehicle’s fuel tank and are referred to as ‘submerged’ fuel pumps. The pump is invariably located with the fuel sender unit and both units can sometimes be accessed through an inspection hole either in the trunk floor or under the rear seat but in a lot of cases requires the tank to be removed.

A conventional ‘flow and return’ system has a supply of fuel delivered to the fuel rail, and the unwanted fuel is passed through the pressure regulator back to the tank. It is the restriction in the fuel line created by the pressure regulator that provides the systems operational pressure.

Returnless fuel systems have been adopted by several vehicle manufacturers and differ from the conventional by having a delivery system only to the fuel rail with no return flow back to the tank.
The returnless systems, both the mechanical and the electronic versions, were necessitated by emissions laws in some parts of the world. The absence of heated fuel returning to the fuel tank reduces the amount of evaporative emissions, while the fuel lines are kept short, thus reducing build costs.
The electric version has all the required components fitted within the one unit of the submersible fuel pump. It contains a small particle filter (in addition to the strainer), pump, electronic pressure regulator, fuel level sensor and a sound isolation system. The electronic pressure regulator allows the pressure to be increased under acceleration conditions, and the pump’s output can be adjusted to suit the engine's fuel demand. This prolongs the pump’s life as it is no longer providing a larger than required output delivery.
The Electronic Control Module (ECM) supplies the required pressure information, while the fuel pump’s output signal is supplied in the form of a digital square wave. Altering the square wave’s duty cycle affects the pump’s delivery output.
To compensate for the changing viscosity of the fuel with changing fuel temperature, a fuel rail temperature sensor is installed. A pulsation damper may also be fitted ahead of or inside the fuel rail.
This should give you a better understanding of the newer fuel pump systems and what we are having to deal with. Just changing the voltage in such a system will not work but the right electronics will!!