Oscillating current & auto dutycycle control

[RTJ_Nair]

Hi all,
I am quite new to this forum and very much interested in the HHO venture. Appreciate the great work being done around the world for this good cause and for a greener future. However, few thoughts came to my mind that could be worth sharing,
1. Using an oscillating plate current through the cell ? Has anyone tried this before?. The electrodes (cathode and anode) being the same material (SS316L), will alternately produce O and H on the plates. Being an alternating current will reduce the cell's capacitive effects and increases efficiency. Believe it will also reduce electrode oxidation and formation of residues due to impurities. The challenge will be to arrive at the optimum oscillating frequency.
2. Has anyone tried controlling the PWM's dutycycle in relation to the engine RPM?. I have almost finished designing a microcontroller based CCPWM module that prevents battery draining at low rpms due to lower power generation by the alternator. The following is what I have introduced in the code,
---- incorporate a linear dutycycle function between two settable RPMs eg; NL=1000 (idling engine speed) and NH=1800 (speed at which alternator is at rated capacity and the regulator kicks-in to maintain around 14VDC for a 12VDC system) and at NL the dutycycle will be maintained at 10% and above NH the dutycycle will be at 100%. In between these limits the dutycycle varies linearly ie; from 10 to 100%.

Any thoughts or suggestion is very much appreciated.

RTJ Nair

[Darrell]

Can't this be done with a DC curcuit as well?

"D"

[RTJ_Nair]

yes, this can be done using DC. All you need is an "H-bridge" properly designed to handle the current and heat dissipation. I have also put the ideas at,

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread....8802#post48802

RTJ Nair

[Darrell]

How about a Juole thief curcuit built supersized using a PWM to trigger the toriod coil. Or a variation of this curcuit. Could the PWM be tuned to the toriod to enhance the voltage spikes as well?

I am not a electronics guy though, just curious about electronic enhancements to make things more effiecent when running HHO reactors.

Oh and your idea of controling the duty cycle I think would be a great idea at lower RPM's. I like when people think outside the box!

"D"

[RTJ_Nair]

The catch is to find the frequency (you may call it cell resonance) at which the cell produces maximum HHO. The equivalent circuit of a cell with source (battery) connected is a series RLC circuit which definitely has a resonant frequency by definition. Every cell however will have its own resonant frequency because of the tolerances that creeps in at every stage of building it.

We know, for a series RLC (resisitor, inductor, capacitor) circuit, current peaks at resonance frequency. Now, if we consider a parallel RLC circuit, the current is minimum at resonance frequency. If we could make an appropriate inductor and run it in parallel with the cell this will transform it into an equivalent parallel resonant circuit. At resonance, the energy stored in the capacitor (cell) and inductor will shuttle back and forth (oscillates) resulting in gas production and at the same time will minimize current consumption. The next level of development is to design a closed-loop control system that will automatically tune the cell to its resonant frequency for any drift in the cell parameters (eg electrolyte conductivity, plate degradation etc).

NOTE: The minimum current mentioned above is the per cell current at around 0.5amp/sq-inch plate area.

I have just finished the drilling job for my first 7-plate HHO dry cell. Still many more things to do. Unfortunately time and availability of components is my hindrance at the moment. However, I am planning to do all the aforementioned activities in due course and explore the possibilities.

RTJ_Nair

[myoldyourgold]

In a controlled lab this might be possible but in a vehicle with ambient temperature and atmospheric changes happening all the time and in some cases radically this becomes a very complex and maybe an impossible problem to stay in the sweet spot. There are some simple methods to achieve similar results that are not so effected with external changes. These methods are also not perfected yet. We are working on them though.

[RTJ_Nair]

What I have in mind is to build a microcontroller that will generate the PWM and additionally an independent clock that triggers the H-bridge. Two settable frequencies thus can be at our disposal. One to set the PWM frequency (not very useful) and the second to set the alternating frequency (effects yet to be explored). I have almost completed the microcontroller coding incorporating the RPM-DUTYCYCLE relationship (explained earlier) and the alternating frequency idea which came up recently. It will have an LCD and 4 push buttons featuring the following,

1. Amps-indication
2. RPM-indication
3. Voltage-indication
4. Dutycycle-indication
5. MOSFET Temperature-indication or can be cell temperature (range will be from 0 to 150 deg C)
6. RPM-low (NL)-settable on the fly
7. RPM-high (NH)-settable on the fly
8. FAN activation temperature-settable on the fly
9. PWM frequency-settable on the fly
10. LOW VOLTAGE (FAULT) -settable on the fly for PWM shutdown
11. HIGH TEMPERATURE (FAULT) - settable on the fly for PWM shutdown
12. OSCILLATOR frequency-settable on the fly for the time being and if proven beneficial, can be made automatic.

The above features are purely for R & D and might not be needed for general use. Let us see if any success can be made.

Regarding the effect of changes in ambient condition, the microcontroller and the MOSFET module/H-bridge can be separated. The microcontroller can be inside the cabin and the latter inside the engine compartment. Both can be easily linked using an FRC5 connector or similar.

To build the inductor, I need to know the approximate cell capacitance for a 4"x4", +NNNNN-, 7 plate drycell. Any info on this will be highly appreciated.

RTJ_Nair

[myoldyourgold]

To build the inductor, I need to know the approximate cell capacitance for a 4"x4", +NNNNN-, 7 plate drycell. Any info on this will be highly appreciated.

Nair Sir, this is where a problem arises. Electrolyte a component of the cell capacitance is non ohmic. By this I mean it does not follow ohms law. It is also a moving target because of heat and other magnetic influences from other components in the engine compartment and the reactor itself. I would be very interested in a method of measuring capacitance of any reactor even at a given temperature.

[RTJ_Nair]

True myoldyourgold, the capacitance of the cell, when in action is complex. Basically, it is the function of Plate area, plate separated-distance and dielectric constant. In a multiplate configuration such as the one I made, capacitors form a series circuit. Temperature influences a lot on the electrolyte's conductivity. The two are different.

Impedance is contributed by capacitance and varies with frequency. In a parallel tank circuit (ie; cell with an inductor connected in parallel), impedance attains maximum ohmic value at resonance.

You may refer the below link. Page 24-section 7.1 seems quite interesting regarding water.

http://www.chem1.com/acad/pdf/solut.pdf

RTJ_Nair

[Darrell]

What I have in mind is to build a microcontroller that will generate the PWM and additionally an independent clock that triggers the H-bridge. Two settable frequencies thus can be at our disposal. One to set the PWM frequency (not very useful) and the second to set the alternating frequency (effects yet to be explored). I have almost completed the microcontroller coding incorporating the RPM-DUTYCYCLE relationship (explained earlier) and the alternating frequency idea which came up recently. It will have an LCD and 4 push buttons featuring the following,

1. Amps-indication
2. RPM-indication
3. Voltage-indication
4. Dutycycle-indication
5. MOSFET Temperature-indication or can be cell temperature (range will be from 0 to 150 deg C)
6. RPM-low (NL)-settable on the fly
7. RPM-high (NH)-settable on the fly
8. FAN activation temperature-settable on the fly
9. PWM frequency-settable on the fly
10. LOW VOLTAGE (FAULT) -settable on the fly for PWM shutdown
11. HIGH TEMPERATURE (FAULT) - settable on the fly for PWM shutdown
12. OSCILLATOR frequency-settable on the fly for the time being and if proven beneficial, can be made automatic.

The above features are purely for R & D and might not be needed for general use. Let us see if any success can be made.

Regarding the effect of changes in ambient condition, the microcontroller and the MOSFET module/H-bridge can be separated. The microcontroller can be inside the cabin and the latter inside the engine compartment. Both can be easily linked using an FRC5 connector or similar.

To build the inductor, I need to know the approximate cell capacitance for a 4"x4", +NNNNN-, 7 plate drycell. Any info on this will be highly appreciated.

RTJ_Nair

I am not sure on the forever moving resonance of the cell it's self. My thoughts first are about taking advantage of the voltage spikes off the toroid then maybe inducing or harvesting frequencies from the pwm thru the toroid as a secondary. Like I said I am not a electronics guy though but would like to experment with this curcuit. Could you point me in the right direction as far the parts needed for the basic H bridge curcuit you were talking about? Also can a variable voltage regulator of some type be used to control the spikes lets say keeping the curcuit spikes around 16 volts or so?

Thanks "D"