My crossroads !

[Donor]

Yeah it is coming out of the bubbler. Should I keep dumping in KOH to get more amps ? i am nervous of having so much KOH. It seems like the more I add nothing really changes.

[hhofox]

The vapour is coming out of your bubbler? Hmmm, how is that bubbler constructed? Generally, you want very small bubbles rising through a column of water (I use vinegar to neutralize whatever electrolyte which may be present) about 12" high. That should clean things up for you. Hell, I can't see anything coming out the top of my bubbler at all! You could even use two bubblers to get the job done right!

I also did an extra thing -which may be useless. I took a bottle and stuffed it full of sponge (not tightly tough) and allow the gas to pass through this chamber. I am guessing that it removes more unwanted stuff as well -I'll have to do a with and without test to prove that.

I think the max KOH concentration that you should have is 28%, but usually, you have to increase the concentration to get higher amps. You must ensure that you leave some room for the heating of the electrolyte so that you do not pass the 30amp limit that myoldyourgold mentioned. If you push the cell to much, and make it overheat, then you can have thermal runaway -unless you are using a PWM to limit the current going to the cell.

[myoldyourgold]

Bubbler construction is something everyone needs to give some good thought to. Longer is more important than short and fat. The distance the bubbles travel makes the difference. Long narrow bubblers with good diffusers with some acidic liquid does the trick. Boric acid or vinegar both work but I prefer Boric acid because it has no water in it like vinegar does if you are in the frozen north and using MMO. Some kind of filtering material at the top of the bubbler is further protection. Spun nylon 1.5 inch thick that is used in some commercial air filters works well. This brakes up things more and is an additional safety.

I prefer NaOH to KOH less NaOH makes its way into the bubbler than KOH. The resistance of KOH at full strength 28% is less then NaOH at its maximum strength of 20%. I guess you can say that might be an advantage for KOH but is not in the reactors I have tested or designed. The biggest advantage for NaOH is what it does in the cleaning and conditioning phase which KOH can not do!! It also does not attach its self to the water molecule like KOH does ending up in the bubbler in larger quanities. NaOH is available in the local hardware store where KOH is not. Both work and it is up to you which one to use.

[Donor]

Well for now my bubbler is a small clear O.J. bottle which I bought for my daughter at Wal Mart. I have the plastic shavings in it from when I drilled out the endplates. Maybe I will go the sponge type in it. This vinegar thing here, If I just filled up with vinegar would that be better. Also this NaOH thing should I just run that instead and what product name is it in stores ? I just completely tore the cell apart last night and scored the plates with a belt sander 60 grit cleaned it all up excetra... tonight i will put it back in. Since I am starting with basically a new system again where should I go with it I am trying how to figure out how to supply the cell with bigger wire rather than mu 12 gauge because that wire comes off the relay. I have 2 +'s coming off the 1 12 gauge from the relay and one 12 gauge ground. I am thinking should also hook up another ground as well i am using + and - supply with a eye hole connector sandwiched through a metal bolt. My buddy Ron the sound system God said the metal bolt is bad because it loses current that way. From my bat the power is 14.3 or so and the first power wire on the cell is 12.87.

[myoldyourgold]

I now use 8 gauge hyper flex 665 strand wire for all the short runs. That is a lot of little strands of wire and makes it very flexable!!! 10 feet or less. If it is longer I go to 4 gauge. If it is the length of the car 0 gauge is what I would recommend but have never had to do that yet. Always have found room in the engine compartment or in front of the radiator. Have not done every kind of vehicle yet not even close, LOL so there is bound to be exceptions. The longest run was in my Mercedes because the battery is next to the firewall and the reactor in front of the radiator. For larger quantities of HHO like 10 plus LPM I use multiple reactors not bigger ones. My largest reactor only makes 6 LPM. They are still pretty big and weigh a ton but for something to use that much HHO it is usually in a large commercial vehicle like a tractor, boat, earth moving equipment or huge 30 liter diesel generating plants and space is not a problem except in some boats where the reactor is not in the engine compartment which is required by some insurance companies and is feeding more than one engine. Crimp and solder all fittings. This is all to help prevent voltage drop between the source and the reactor.

[hhofox]

Try using vinegar in the bubbler (still checking out the ratio.) You mentioned plastic shavings twice -so I am guessing that they are sizeable, but a good filtration device (like an air-stone) would be much better.
Regarding the sponge - I do not know how effective it is.
I think it does something, but the jury is still out on that. What I am thinking of doing though, is putting some in a segment of my tubing. I would just pack it in loosely so that it does not restrict gas flow, then check visually, and flow-wise what difference it makes if any.

NaOH is Sodium Hydroxide. I see it at the supermarket in both liquid and granular forms -I choose granular. It's "Drain Opener." It is said that it does stuff in the initial stages which KoH does not. KoH is stronger though. Crap happens at times though (READ: I do not always use gloves), so I feel 'safer' using NaOH. Just be careful -always adding the NaOH TO water, NOT NOT NOT water to NaOH. Same goes for potassium I think -recall that from High School. Can you say EXPLOSION!? Be sure to have a bottle of vinegar on hand for emergency neutralization.
Oh, I also use vinegar to clean any spot that the NaOH touches on the car.

[Donor]

I bought that stuff from Lowes. Roebic drain cleaner it says 100% lye. Thats KOH right ? I am just nervous about that vapor fog coming out of the bubbler. If vinegar is better in the bubbler for cleaning and such I will go that route then. Whats in my bubbler are the shavings from when i drilled out my endplates with a 1/2 bit. The bubbles go right around it though. This weekend I am going to St. Louis to see my friend which is like a 600 mile round trip and want to run the system during it. The other thing is I have like 4 tablespoons of KOH with a 2 liter bottle and the amp draw doesn't want to go over 15-20 amps. I would like to hit 25 amps for more HHo but how much more should I put in it ? When I had my 21 plate 4n's I used very little KOH and it was at 30 amps and 1ltr in 26 seconds with no fog vapor from bubbler. It just seems like the 21 plate produced more with less KOH in it. It couldn't of been steam because still my cell has NEVER even been warm or hot. Hope you reply tonight friend.

[hhofox]

Since you had more plates in the reactor, the greater surface area would give off more gas. The thing about it is that to get heat taken care of and other factors, such as better quality gas from your unit, you need at least 5Ns. 6Ns are even better! If I were you, I would have just added the extra plates to make it up. If not, just work with the 19 plate setup.
The cell should get warmer after driving for a while, and along with ambient temps cause some change in the AMPS used by the reactor. That said, if you could read the amps while driving, you may be getting up to the 25 you desire. Otherwise, since it seems like you get approx five amps per tablespoon of KOH, then why not try adding 1/4 or even 1/2 a tablespoon? Just pour out some of your existing solution, add the KOH, pour it back and give it a bit of time to get mixed in, then test the amps.
I think 1/4 at a time is more controllable, so try that and see what happens.

[myoldyourgold]

Roebic drain cleaner from Lowes is NaOH not KOH. Lye is NaOH. Never use any product that is NOT 100% because some products which are half the price come with some metals and other stuff in it that will ruin your reactor.

[Donor]

Yeah over the weekend in St. louis me and my friend realized i was using NaOH versus KOH. Everybody is saying 5-6 neutral plates but my production was better with 4 neutral plates. I think I might go back to my 21 plate instead. With my 21 plate I never saw that vapor cloud like I do with the 19 plate and a ton more NaOH in it. Once I put the 21 bach togather i am going to see with a balloon if is water vapor or a gas and if the balloon falls or rises. Again even after 400 miles home the cell was not hot.