Current source from heat e.g. Thermocouple

[rayce]

New to the HHO concept, I've been reading and wanted to suggest a form of power available. An automotive exhaust 350 watt power generator is due to be finished this year. At 12 volts that's in the range of 30 amps if my brain is working today. A company called TEG is using something similar to the thermocouple Seebeck effect and working on this device which is supposed to be available this year.

I'm curious if HHO will cool the exhaust temp in any way?

Again I'm new to this but have a lot of years earning a living as an automotive mechanic before changing careers to designing PLC based control systems. Recently studying thermocouple design made the light bulb go off in my head and reason for this question.

[Weapon_R]

rayce interesting stuff. There is a member doing work in this area. He actually has a hho gen running from the electricity generated by the TEG. Last I heard he was working on something even more complex than his last project.
Would love to hear more.

[BioFarmer93]

-Absolutely, definitely want to hear more about this- probably out of my price range though...

[rayce]

I'm just curious if HHO will burn cooler and reduce the heat content needed to generate the electricity.

This is not new technology, just a different application of existing technology. To construct a series of thermocouples with heavy gauge wire and use them to produce electricity. The device is called a thermopile. It is necessary to alternate hot and cold temperatures to each junction. A new metal alloy has been developed specifically for this but not to say current materials won't work.

The beauty of this is it can be applied to existing combustion devices from the automotive industry to the power industry and everything in between. I keep looking for "the catch" so to speak but have not found anything negative.

Part of my curiosity is the combustion temperature. If we can create a lean but cooler burning flame, we can reduce CO and NOX at the same time. Usually if one goes down the other goes up. But again if the exhaust temp is too low this would be reducing the amount of electricity that could be generated from the heat content.

[BioFarmer93]

I'm getting slow in my old age, took me a while to realize you were talking about Peltier devices. This has interested me for years- the recovery of waste heat by TEG's to power electrolysers.. HHO cools EGT's a little bit, but not enough to impede the function of a Peltier device. I've always wondered if the hot side/cold side differential for good function was so great that use of semi-passive means for cooling could still be effective, or if it would be necessary to use precious watts on a cooling system...

[myoldyourgold]

Gus is right when it comes to the normal user. I have seen with an absurdly lean mixture, enough HHO to fill the Good Year blimp, which resulted in a ridiculously low fuel consumption and an increase in exhaust temperature by 180º F. I agree that it will not affect the use of a Peltier devise like the one BMW is futsing around with. This tech has real potential if developed and used with HHO to even get us better mileage. I remember reading about it in 2009 and saved this picture. If I remember it put out 200 watts and could save up to 5% in fuel consumption by itself. The article might still be there Google BMW thermoelectric generator. This should tell you that using more amps to create HHO really sucks fuel and this is why you need to be as efficient as possible.

[rayce]

Okay so claims of 300w from TEG’s product:

http://www.tegpower.com/products.html


we generate current from the wasted exhaust heat to produce HHO via PWM and water.

The HHO generated enhances the gasoline economy with extra oxygen as well as adding a percentage of Hydrogen to further reduce gasoline consumption.

This could be on demand and operation would be similar to an EGR circuit. Current could divert to a charging battery during idle and any off throttle periods like deceleration.

Now more questions?

Does the water have to be distilled because that takes energy?

What could be expected regarding the service life of an HHO generator?

Does the HHO generator create any waste and if so is it toxic?

What about the water freezing?

[myoldyourgold]

300 watts sounds really good but I doubt it will do that good on the heat coming out of most 2 liter 4 cylinder engines or smaller on a cold day. Maybe off a 5 liter V8 with good insulation. I have not looked into it recently but when I did there just was not enough heat with the current technology to run a reactor, but would only relieve the load to some degree so worth something. Maybe things have gotten better. Most need about 300 watts for most 4 bangers to get any gain and more if you can lean things out more. Then you have to look at the return on investment with gas prices going up maybe it works out.

[H2OPWR]

I looked at this technology real hard back in 2008. I went far enough to buy some TEG's off e-bay. I attached them to angle iron and strapped them to my exhaust pipe to see what I could come up with. I am sure it could be done way better than I did but I was very dissapointed with the results. The sum total of the wattage I was supposed to be able to get was about 200 watts according to the specs of the TEG's I purchased. The best I was ever able to get was around 20 watts. There needs to be huge temperature difference between the hot and cold sides to get anywhere near the advertised wattage. I suppose it is possible but in the real world it takes energy to create the temp differences needed. I guess running an HHO generator off one would be possible but the costs involved were too high at the time. The devices would wear out and need replaced before the money it took to buy them could be recovered in energy savings.

When used as a warmer or a cooler a Peltier device is a bery ineffecient device. When used as a TEG it is even worse. In fact when used to generate electrical current a TEG is only 10% effecient as compared to using it to cool or heat something. In case you are not aware when you hook up a TEG to electricity it creates a hot side and a cold side. They are mostly used th coolers to keep things cold using electricity instead of ice.

Maybe the technology has improved over the last 5 years but if it hasn't then I am afraid it is just too expensive to work well. Not trying to be negative I am just sharing my results from going down this rabbit hole.

Larry