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Thread: How about Nickel Iron Batteries

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaneDHorstead View Post
    I considered the fact that current would be added, to be as comparable to building a boat.

    There's no point to it, if your afraid to get it wet!

    Don't misunderstand me to be argumentative.

    I don't mean to be argumentitive, but the concept is to produce HHO, which requires a current source.

    Electrolysis, is a product of current. be it the current which is in the earth, or intentionally introduced.

    The reaction is not between the copper, and the plates, or the copper and the water......

    until, current is added!
    When current is added, oxygen is released from hydrogen (breaking the bond of the two elements)

    This dissassociated oxygen causes the copper to tarnish (aka: to oxidize). This is further emphasised, if there are dissisimilar metals in the mix (including a rare possibility of mercury in the water).

    Just like deep sea salvage divers, when they find metal artifacts like cannons, anchors, etc, they rush to bring the items up, and then put them back into containers of water.

    Below the surface of water they are for the most part, stabilized.

    Being underwater, the oxidation process is slowed to a craw, because the oxygen is not free to break its bond to the hydrogen. Hydrogen would be released in this given circumstance, if the oxygen could break that bond, to oxidize the metal (which it does not do)

    But exposed to oxygen in the air, these artifacts are rapidly being effected.

    I have been experimenting with HHO, for nearly a year, using various styles of electrode designs, including Joe cells, stacked stainless butter cups, funnels, etc.

    HHO is a hobby, but electric is, and always has been my trade.

    I have worked with electricity for nearly sixty years, as well as I live in Naples FL, on salt water. I worked in elevator construction/repair for 20 years, and now am in the hurricane shutter (and shutter motor repair) business. We are only allowed to use stainless steel as fasteners, and we are required to be tested on our knowlege of electrolysis, and the effects of it. on various metal types in order to obtain the required licenses.

    Salt, is constantly in the air, here, and we strive to keep its harmfull effects under control everyday!

    Salt is extremely corrosive, and through the use of softer metals, we keep electrolysis in check, because it first eats away at the softer "sacrifice (lead) plates".

  2. #22
    Smith03Jetta Guest

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    I can attest to this as well. We put large lead ground plates on the hulls of our shrimp boats in the Gulf of Mexico. They are eaten away over time by electrolysis but it does help protect the rest of the steel and copper stuff on the boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith03Jetta View Post
    I can attest to this as well. We put large lead ground plates on the hulls of our shrimp boats in the Gulf of Mexico. They are eaten away over time by electrolysis but it does help protect the rest of the steel and copper stuff on the boat.
    Few people understand the need to fight off unintentional electrolysis.

    But living anywhere near salt water, we deal with the effects of it, everyday.

    I'd bet you also agree with the fact that there's not much point to building a boat, if you'r afraid to get it wet!

    I wasn't trying to give the guy a hard time, but adding current, is pretty much a given, isn't it?

  4. #24
    1973dodger Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaneDHorstead View Post
    Few people understand the need to fight off unintentional electrolysis.

    But living anywhere near salt water, we deal with the effects of it, everyday.

    I'd bet you also agree with the fact that there's not much point to building a boat, if you'r afraid to get it wet!

    I wasn't trying to give the guy a hard time, but adding current, is pretty much a given, isn't it?
    Dane,

    I'm afraid you have missed the point. Oxygen, is attracted to the positive electrode in our electrolosis generator, it is the anode which requires a noble metal such as stainless steel, the cathode will, infact, repel the effects of the oxygen.(opposites attract while likes repel) The example you have given concerning electrolosis in nature, is more of a chemical reaction. I think you should look into the some of the inner workings of a galvanic cell if you need an explanation of how dissimilar metals react in relationship to the "anode and cathode"(key). Although a galvanic cell is used to produce electricity by the reaction of disimilar metals in a solution with hydrogen as a by-product. As where we are making our cells to produce hydrogen with the outside influence of electricity.

    While you and I agree about the effects Oxygen and salt effects of the corrosion process. We just have to be a little smarter than the elements we are dealing with and know what they like and dislike. Have you physically tried what I have proposed, in relationship to building a hho cell? If not, that is your choice. But I have for 2 months now with no ill effects to the copper as cathode electrodes. So sir, I have put my "boat in the water".

    My therory is, there are better electrodes than stainless steel to achieve more production, if our purpose is to produce hho. I could care less if my electrodes are shiny in the process, if I can find a way to produce my hho more efficiently. So, why not think outside the box. I may be a little unorthadox in my approach and am sure to go down many paths which lead to dead ends. But I don't think any of us has the market cornered, as to the answer of how to liberate ourselves from the stranglehold the oil barons now have.

    I do want to welcome you to this forum and look forward to learning from the experience you bring to the table. But to this point we must disagree, other materials other than SS can be successfully used as electrodes.

    Sincerely,

    1973dodger

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    I agree that it is good to think outside the box........

    The Gavlvonic cell uses two dissimilar metals, which would be absolutely disasterous to the creation of HHO.

    You are welcome to your opinions, and I won't step on your feet, in that respect.

    My comment, was to the effect that adding current to the device, is a given. It is not built just to look at it.

    Every road needs to be explored, for the better understanding of all, however with all due respect, I believe we agree to dissagree.




    Stainless steel is chosen, for its adversity to corrosion, especially in low grades of carbon content (304L, and 316L as examples).

    Virtually everyone here is aware of 304 stainless, but in all probability, they for the most part are not aware that 304 is also available in L (low carbon content) grade as well.

    As for annodes, and cathodes, current can be made to travel in either direction, such as the rare situations where lightning travels from the earth to a cloud (or cloud to cloud) In most cases cloud to cloud lightning, is merely a balancing of uneven electrical charges, and can discharge in either positive, or negative directions.

    While it's true that most people think current always travels from positive, to negative, that is not always the case. Without that possibility, Alternating Current would not be possible, but even direct current can be made to reverse flow.

    However, the direction of travel is almost insignificant here, because in either direction of travel, both elements take on the positive charge and repell each other. It is that repulsion, that causes the dissassociation of water, and causes both elements to become vapors above the soupy solution of water and electrolyte.

    The point is, that these vapor/bubbles can not abide together in the water, and that they must escape the water. It makes little, to absolutely no difference, which is attracted to which plate, if they are all liked charged, and they repell each other, and the water!

    They can not abide together, within the water! They must escape.

    At least in the case of using neutral plates, the reaction is magnetic, and not chemical.

    Magnetic forces are just as valid underwater, as they are above.

    The current is induced, and suffers a voltage drop as it passes positive side, to negative side, of each plate, then it is induced to the next plate, and so on. Each plate looses an approximate two volts, as current passes from plate to plate, without a direct electrical connection.

    The absorbtion of electrical protons from the catalyst to the negative hydrogen (changing it to a positivly charged atom), may indeed be chemical. However, the induction of currents to, and through the neutral plates (and then one, to another), is magnetic, not chemical.

    And yes I do have working cells, as well as I offer them for sale, on a wholesale basis. As I also do with other HHO supply materials.

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    Dodger;

    I took me a day to research, the following, so I had something to back my words, however, in response to your claim........

    Note I highlight your words, so as to refudiate them.


    I'm afraid you have missed the point. Oxygen, is attracted to the positive electrode in our electrolosis generator, it is the anode which requires a noble metal such as stainless steel, the cathode will, infact, repel the effects of the oxygen.

    Perhaps your generator works differently, than everybody elses.


    I turn your attention to the following link, which is a very thorough study on the manufacture of hydrogen, compromised of findings of multiple individuals, rangeng well over four hundred years, of study. It was published in 1919, at the University of California.

    http://www.archive.org/download/chem...00teedrich.pdf

    Pay particular attention to the pages 127 (just above the diagram), and again at the bottom of pafe 131.

    In both cases, it is stated that in electrolysis, Oxygen is liberated, at the anode (positive - input terminal), and that hydrogen is liberated, at the negative (cathode).

    Liberation at the positive (anode), is a repulsed action, and just the opposition of being attracted to the anode, (as you state).

    The hydrogen is liberated from the cathode, just as I implied.


    I missed no such point!

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    Note that same study published in 1919, makes mention (in many places) that induced plates, pose Electro Mechanical Forces into the system, causing a voltage drop between the plates. The writing further goes on to explain that the EMF is a magnetic field, created by the induction of currents.

  8. #28
    1973dodger Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaneDHorstead View Post
    Dodger;

    I took me a day to research, the following, so I had something to back my words, however, in response to your claim........

    Note I highlight your words, so as to refudiate them.


    I'm afraid you have missed the point. Oxygen, is attracted to the positive electrode in our electrolosis generator, it is the anode which requires a noble metal such as stainless steel, the cathode will, infact, repel the effects of the oxygen.

    Perhaps your generator works differently, than everybody elses.


    I turn your attention to the following link, which is a very thorough study on the manufacture of hydrogen, compromised of findings of multiple individuals, rangeng well over four hundred years, of study. It was published in 1919, at the University of California.

    http://www.archive.org/download/chem...00teedrich.pdf

    Pay particular attention to the pages 127 (just above the diagram), and again at the bottom of pafe 131.

    In both cases, it is stated that in electrolysis, Oxygen is liberated, at the anode (positive - input terminal), and that hydrogen is liberated, at the negative (cathode).

    Liberation at the positive (anode), is a repulsed action, and just the opposition of being attracted to the anode, (as you state).

    The hydrogen is liberated from the cathode, just as I implied.


    I missed no such point!
    Danedhorsestail,

    I could not pull up your little link. (I guess it was attached to the anode on this thread and was eaten by some oxygen.) I am sorry you wasted your day trying to prove some point, when you could have just gone to wekipedia and looked up electrolosis 101, or cathodic protection, or sacrificial anode, or noble metals, or principles of a galvanic cell to see whether the oxygen was attracted to the anode or the cathode. This is pretty basic stuff, if you are going to sell your products to the general public, you should know this very fundemental truth concerning electrolosis. As to the liberation, or as you put it "repulsed", of the oxygen at the anode, would have to go against the laws of magnetism. Once again, opposites attract and likes repel. You could do just a simple test on one of those wholesale products of yours, to see the the larger oxygen bubbles sticking to your anode plates and the smaller hydrogen bubbles sticking to you cathode plates. The key word I use is sticking, does'nt look like repulsing to me. It is, in fact, only the bouyancy of the particular gasses which does the liberating as well as an natural anti-oxidant layer which is formed by the chromium element found in SS. Why do you think so much effort has been put into finding the resonance of an electrolitic cell, so as to keep the oxygen and hydrogen bubbles "knocked" off of our plates, so as to not insulate the electrical reaction neccessary to produce hho. Surely you have checked into the work of Stan Meyers, have'nt you?

    Now surely you have some better things to do with your time than argue and look up some study printed in 1919, I know I sure do. Many of the laws of Faraday have been surpassed by the likes of Boyce, Meyers, and Dingle, for which I have not come close to as of yet. Now I was willing to leave your last reply be, and chalk it up to you have your opinion and I have mine, but for some reason this seems to be eating at you (like oxygen on an anode) I believe this will be my last reply to you concerning this subject, for it does not make a difference to me, if you agree with me or not. Happy hho-ing. (Only kidding about the "horsestail" thing, I just think you are taking yourself far to serious.)

    1973dodger

  9. #29
    SamB52 Guest

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    All I can say is that you boys are perfecting an art...the art of being condescending to complete strangers!
    Very entertaining.

  10. #30
    c02cutter Guest

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    Lmfao!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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