HHO 2002 Buick weirdness
up and running on one O2 sensor with LC-1 and MAP under control A-OK by my DFA. Fuelsaver MAF cntlr problematic, turn it on and the motor totally dies. Fuelsaver says it works with GM, so going to do a piggy-back of the MAF signal and scope it. Maybe just defective. Got a spare so can swap it out. hho4free site says to not bother with the MAF if it freq based, just do the MAP...
Running narrow band curve in LC-1 moved to lean side by just .04v, getting suspicious fluctuations of power as I monitor the AFR bouncing too much between 14.5 and 16. Gas pedal pressure steady under mild pull, I can feel the car acceleration fluctuate in sync with the AFR. Power seems to peak when the AFR peaks (lean). I think that is good. No improvement in mileage yet.
Getting P0135 code every start up after clearing on my scangauge. Once cleared it goes away for that cycle. However I think I am stuck on the low end of the learning cycle of the PCM, takes 100+ mi. to settle in to the environment I think after every code clear. This is just the heater wires to the narrow band sensor disconnected since the LC-1 has taken that over since I decided to install it by substituted a wide-band in place of the narrow band. You either use the same O2 sensor installation bung or have to get another one welded on, nosirree-bob to that.
Here is what I think is going on. My post cat O2 sensor is in a battle with my LC-1 and the PCM is fluctuating between the 2. Just a WAG on my part... So got my work cut out, going to try to drive the post-cat O2 signal with the same output from my LC-1. Then hook up the old narrow band heater wires in parallel with the post-cat sensor heater wires and steal that impedance info feeding it into the PCM. I feel like I am in the novel "Of Mice and Men".
found that the lc1 high time constant filter I selected, on the sensor caused the pulsing acceleration, sped it up a bit.
Last edited by sampojo; 09-26-2012 at 06:55 PM.
Reason: add more info
Put back the stock O2 sensor in and weld in a bung for the Innovate wideband - that's simple enough. Cars and their O2 sensors are very finicky and picky to the point that just difference in things like brand and length of wire etc can throw things off and throw error with the stock ECU - let alone what you are trying to do. You can log and monitor your AFR vs RPM (and other parameters if you purchase a separate item from Innovate). So no need to be fighting with your stock ECU how you are. And once you have logs to see the difference the HHO addition is making then you can make adjustments to the Program/fuel maps in your software or even hook up and EFIE to see if it really does what it's supposed to and achieves what you are trying to do. Also note that upon installing your Wideband you have to calibrate it or you will get false reading, just thought I'd say that just in case you missed it in the installation.
I too am researching with hopes of eventually adding an HHO system to my car which I have turbo charged and running with a piggy back tuner and I also have an Innovate Wide Band that I use for tuning/data logging purposes for open loop/boost driving. I've just got to work out the kinks of how I'm going to supplement with HHO and integrate some fail safes into the mix so that if for whatever reason like say I run out or get low on water for HHO then it switches over to a fuel only MAP for boost as running while boosting (turbo) and running out of it (HHO) would make for a nice blown engine due to being too lean. So I've got a bit more on my plate to factor in than the average Joe.
update on the Buick
Kman, thanks for the suggs. Here's my latest though. Fuelsavers freq MAFenhancer no workee on GM. Period. Total mismatch on the waveform, could work if the electronics could be verified to be using edge triggering somewhere. That was the thinking at Fuelsavers. But when hooked up, the output line looked as if it was hooked up to ground, just dead, no signal. Good signal on the oscope though (high impedance). So there is first of all an impedance mismatch there most likely. Returned them. On the extra bung, I dont want to invest a hundreds of dollars every time I do something, Just run too big into the hole to ever get my money out without some proof of getting sig. double digit percentage mileage improvement On the P0135 error Innovate suggests to just hang the old O2 sensor with the heater hookup. I tried power wire hook up, and not the ground, figuring it should be the same, but no joy there. So I did what Innovate said in the manual, that worked. So I could control the MAP and the O2, figured I start to see some improvement, but no, all worse mpg than straight HHO, so far. Got to check the HHO output on my generator again. Got to push to the 2lpm range maybe. Otherwise not seeing the benefit so far.
Tuning more with LC-1
Problems, problems. OK returned MAFe's to Fuelsavers still no refund yet.
Kept getting P0420 when I tried to drive the second O2 sensor with the LC-1 A1 channel. That means identical signal both sensors, so I guess that could means the PCM thinks the cat is broke. Put a 5M resistor, on the post cat sensor signal wire, that did the trick. So now the PCM is free to work and settle into its new environment. I was too agressive on the MAP intercept and have cut that back. Have seen some low fuel flow numbers on idle, but then it goes high delivering a higher more normal looking MAP(not what I programmed), but then it is really leaning things out on the AFR, 17-18+. Idles rough too. So the PCM is doing something already to get around my 2 sensor control. overall mileage is back up near the high delivered on straight gas, might have gotten 5% higher with HHO, no sensor control. Just not sure due to calibration difficulties of scangauge flow meter readings with the gas pump. Have settled it there at a 16% number, but still waffle on a 2% correction on the odometer (tires?). Just aint easy.... Since I got no boost from HHO now I could maybe tune the MAP a little better, but something is wrong. I might need more HHO, got to look at that more. LC_ is easy to adjust, down to about a .02v increase on the values, shifting the lean rich signal point from .42v to about .73. Could be too much there too.
Last edited by sampojo; 09-20-2012 at 07:47 AM.
Before you start tinkering with your MAF or O2 sensor values, the first question to ask is - How does HHO boosting affecting the OBD II values? So you need to establish baseline values first, and then, boost HHO and watch the OBD II values see if these changes. The baseline should be a few weeks of driving. Boosting should again be a few weeks.
settling in with lc1 & DFA
got the lc1 to feed its signal to the b1s2 O2 sensor but needed to pipe it thru a 5M resistor to keep the P0420 code away(s1 & s2 have identical signal), knocking the signal down, couldn't see the diff on a meter, fluctuates big time. Seeing some good numbers on fuel flow idle noticeable lower at times. can get numbers no higher than the best posted without o2 and the dfa map enhancer still. absolutely must need MAF controller, planning to add some resistors to the ECT & IAT. Fuelsavers freq MAFe doesn't work on GM freq based maf, still looking. I think I am low on HHO output ~1lpm on 3l v6, needs 2. planning a fuel heater, darn Buick has 2 lines=2 heaters. Be nice to do some water injection. Have some weird moments on warmup, AFR climbs ~20+, fuel flow climbs +20%, MAP climbs even though an enhanced signal, idling rough. gonna build another wetcell, sure aint dropping another 2-300.
found another make of freq MAFe, magnumtuning.com, checking it out.
Last edited by sampojo; 09-26-2012 at 08:06 PM.
Reason: more info
thanks for your interest. Ran my mileageshop booster for a year no enhancers, highest to low output, maybe got 1-2 mpg improvement. running a lean toggle point of about .72v on the LC1, normal is .42v (narrow band). might be too lean, but some thief stole my usb-db9 cable out of my car, so I'm stuck until the new one comes in. Got an AFR gauge and EGT gauge running nice, AFR really nails performance from the lc1. running a scangauge too.
Originally Posted by greenfuelbooster
Hey Green, great work on those platinum boosters and programming the PCM. I am gonna order some software for that. (ebay). How much current does one booster draw?
my personnal log on the Buick
Wow, was running my old O2 sensor heater to kill the P0135 light I got with the LC1 doing the narrow band sensor duties, must've got wet, shorted out or something. finally figured out I needed to just run a 10ohm resistance. So I took a cue from http://www.searcypress.com/fuelcell/index.html which advocate running the HHO thru a coil. I compromised on a 18ohm coil. works, ECU/PCM likes it, mileage at 15% increase. Also need to wear a tinfoil hat when driving gph is at lowest ever on idle!!! .32 this AM and ECU just starting to settle in its new error free environment.
I have Nissan Titan with a 43 plate cell. The HEC unit that came with my kit was not functioning properly so I returned it for a replacement. While I'm waiting for the replacement I decided to experiment with the cell to find the optimum current range to run at as it's hot in Vegas and running near the cell's maximum rating is not possible. I had the opportunity to drive from Vegas to LA twice. The Titan is rated at 13/14/17 mpg. On my first trip I did about 15 mpg on the highway. The second time I did just above 18 mpg. I've managed to maintain about 13 mpg on the streets before hho. Recently, I've been seeing just above 15 mpg on the streets and my combined has worked up to 17. The other day I did a test where I ran with hho off on a short trip and turned it on the return. I definitely noticed it ran a bit rough with the hho off but the mpg was very similar in both directions. This is clearly a sign that the ECU is learning and adapting to the hho in a positive way. Especially when you consider my first run to LA gave me worse mpg which can be expected without any treatment to the sensors. This just makes me wonder how far I can get without any electronics.
A 1: You don't need anything to burn H2 O2. The gas carries it's own O2. To run a vehicle on hydroxy, you would need a safe storage container, a compressor to compress the gas into the fuel rail, and an ECU to trigger the opening of gas sealed injectors at the right time. Why isn't anybody doing it? Because the entire Republican party and most of the Democrats are controlled by big oil. The entire global economy is based on big oil. The dominate species on the planet has become a collective addict to big oil. Get it?
A 2: O2 sensors in vehicles are the only sensors that create voltage. They create voltages between .1 VDC (lean) and .9 VDC (rich). The computer samples voltage levels on a repetitive time factor depending on the computer (example: once every second) and adjusts the opening of the injectors accordingly. They make devices that allegedly increase the voltage by a nominal amount, tricking the ECU into thinking that it's running a tad rich all the time to cause less fuel to be injected into the combustion chamber. 'Nominal' is the key word in this case. Do they really do that? Well I haven't seen any of them that incorporate a digital voltage gauge that confirms that they do. Furthermore I would only use a device that does this in between the O2 sensor and the computer. I would never hook up wires to the ODBII connector.
Last edited by dejavouxdoux; 08-26-2014 at 12:20 AM.