Dry Cell getting very low production (Installed on 97 Grand Cherokee) New Member

[-AK87-]

Hello everyone! I have been an active reader on this forum, but until today have not yet posted. So here we go:

I have built a 31 plate dry cell unit to produce hydrogen in a 97 Jeep grand Cherokee Limited (5.2l v8) The cell itself measured 6x6x4.25 inches and the 314 stainless steel plates are 5.5" wide (.036" thick). Each plate has three equally spaced half inch holes drilled through them for circulation (vertically as in a top hole, middle hole and bottom hole looking at the face of the plate). I used standard 1/16" thick O rings that measure 5.25" wide to just fit inside the area of my plates. The endcaps/plastic plates are .75" pvc. The cell has two bottom water/electrolyte solution inlets (one on each side) and two upper gas outlets (one on each side). The tank for the electrolyte solution is a standard one that can be found in many hho builds and serves as both a resivor for water and bubbler for hho gases. From the main tank, gases flow into a small pvc secondary bubbler before being routed to the engine (into intake right before manifold). For my electrolyte solution, I currently use KOH mixed as a 10% solution with distilled water (about 12 tbsp of KOH to a gallon of water).

Electronically, I routed wiring directly from the battery (in parallel with main connection) to a relay, so the ignition of the Jeep turns on the generator, a 30 amp in line fuse, an ammeter, a voltmeter, a toggle switch, and a 30 amp generic (ogo) pwm. (Not exactly in that order) It then runs to the generator where I then get 1.6 to 1.85 volts in between plate gaps. (Again, 31 plate 5 neutral. So 3 positive hookups, 3 negative hookups and 5 sets of 5 neutral plates) When the cell warms up, I can consistently run the generator around 16-18 amps which is with the pwm maxed out. For whatever reason, I could never get more amperage through the generator, which kind of makes the pwm useless since its supposed to be to put more current through the generator until it gets warmed up, but yet I can only get like 14 amps when I tun it on cold (pwm maxed).

Anyway, that is my setup, but here is my problem: With all of this, I can only get about half of a liter per minute of gas production. I feel as though I've seen generators half the size of mine making 2lpm so I'm stumped. Previously, this generator was a 19 plate cell with 1/8" O rings that I upgraded to what I have described. Although the production increased, it is still far from great... I have spent tons of time on this and have read almost everything I could find, attempting to build it the right way. I have tried more concentrated electrolyte solutions, and hooking the generator straight up to a 12v battery with no other components to no avail. 1/2 a liter per minute... is this all I can get from this setup? I don't know what I could be doing wrong... I've checked to voltage in between each plate, checked the seals on the tanks, and just about everything I can think of... I am a junior in high school and am truely commited to getting this working so any help would REALLY be appreciated I just don't know where to go from here...

Also, I took a quick video of my setup so you all can see everything that I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUlij...ature=youtu.be

Thanks ahead of time

[dswareagle]

what size wires are you feeding your cell with? with my first cell i tried with too small a wire to power it and it wouldnt produce a single bubble.and three holes in line in each plate is definately leaking current.

[-AK87-]

Hi, I am running 12 gauge wire through the entire system (Started off with 10 gauge but it seemed quite annoying to work with and I figured 12 was good enough, so thats what I used) The wires are not getting hot either (slghtly warm but nothing more). 12 guage wire should be able to handle 17 amps at 12 volts easily... right? Also what do you mean by the holes causing leaking current? Do you you think it would be bad enough to cause the lack of performance I'm getting? (That would essentially tell me that I wasted 180 dollars on stainless steel haha) Oh, and the plates are 316L, not 314 :P sorry it's been a while since I bought them...

[dswareagle]

did you sand or media blast the plates? 12 may not be enough considering how far from your energy source your cell is.( ever run a skill saw off long cheap extention cord? takes a sec to get up to speed) what temperatures are you running? im not saying you wasted your money although the yodas on here may but rest assured electricity would much rather run straight through your electrolyte than through stainless thats the whole idea behind staggered holes to make the path of least resistance to go through the plates rather than wind back and forth through the electrolyte

how many volts are you running? it looks like in the video you are below 12...

[dswareagle]

also what is the longest you have run the cell? did you condition it with low amps after you built it?

[-AK87-]

I sanded all the plates with a da then cleaned and scrubbed them down with soap and water (rinsed extensively to get soap off) and used alcohol wipes on each side of each plate and the o rings when I assembled the whole thing. (Both times :P) And you could be right about the wires, but back when I had the cell as a 19 plate, I hooked the cell directly to a fully charged 12v and it didn't make a difference length wise. (In terms of production) I could of sworn I read something that said 12 gauge was sufficent for the length and amperage I was looking at, but according to: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm , it would appear that I need 8 gauge wire... (12 is only rated for 9.3 amps power transmission) I guess that I can try a heavier gauge and see if theres a difference, thanks dswareagle. Also, I have run it for probably 1 hour the longest in use in the vehicle, otherwise I don't typically drive for more than 30 mins at a time where I need to go. After I re-built it, I ran it for two hours at about 7 amps to condition. And if the wire doesn't work: 1. is there any way to seal holes in the plates in a professional, working manner? 2. would staggering the neutral plates between vertical in line holes and horizontal in line holes make a difference do you think? Oh and typically at 17ish amps, the cell runs about 100-110 degrees F by my estimate. (I don't have a temp gun, although I suppose I could use meat thermometer or something of the like) putting your hand on the plates, it feels quite warm, but not yet hot haha if that helps. And you are correct, according to that voltmeter I am typically running at 11ish volts, which doesn't correspond with the voltmeter in my dash, but regardless I will use an actual voltmeter at the cell and let you know. (I did this once previously and recall the gauge in my box being slightly low for some reason... again I'll let you know)

[dswareagle]

I sanded all the plates with a da then cleaned and scrubbed them down with soap and water (rinsed extensively to get soap off) and used alcohol wipes on each side of each plate and the o rings when I assembled the whole thing. (Both times :P) And you could be right about the wires, but back when I had the cell as a 19 plate, I hooked the cell directly to a fully charged 12v and it didn't make a difference length wise. (In terms of production) I could of sworn I read something that said 12 gauge was sufficent for the length and amperage I was looking at, but according to: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm , it would appear that I need 8 gauge wire... (12 is only rated for 9.3 amps power transmission) I guess that I can try a heavier gauge and see if theres a difference, thanks dswareagle. Also, I have run it for probably 1 hour the longest in use in the vehicle, otherwise I don't typically drive for more than 30 mins at a time where I need to go. After I re-built it, I ran it for two hours at about 7 amps to condition. And if the wire doesn't work: 1. is there any way to seal holes in the plates in a professional, working manner? 2. would staggering the neutral plates between vertical in line holes and horizontal in line holes make a difference do you think? Oh and typically at 17ish amps, the cell runs about 100-110 degrees F by my estimate. (I don't have a temp gun, although I suppose I could use meat thermometer or something of the like) putting your hand on the plates, it feels quite warm, but not yet hot haha if that helps. And you are correct, according to that voltmeter I am typically running at 11ish volts, which doesn't correspond with the voltmeter in my dash, but regardless I will use an actual voltmeter at the cell and let you know. (I did this once previously and recall the gauge in my box being slightly low for some reason... again I'll let you know)

well at 11 volts the way your cell is puts you at 1.833 volts per cell just barely enough to make the gas at all

if you put the other plates on their side then they will only fill up with water half way and gas will fill the rest of the cell...no bueno

have you tried just taking one plate our of each stack and see if that helps? might work instead of changing to larger gauge wire.

[-AK87-]

Oh duh that would be a bad idea... haha wow its like I forgot why I drilled those holes in the first place. I thought of trying four neutrals, but from what I read about electrolysis, it is, in its most ideal form (which mine is not), most efficent at 1.5 volts and anything over that is just wasted energy. But would 2-3 volts be more effective for what I'm doing maybe? Well, I'll try both things and get back to you. I know that I tried hooking up another battery in series before the generator (- to - to generator and + to + to generator) and the increased amperage made a signifigant difference until I adjusted it too high and it blew my 30 amp fuse :P Also I need to do some more reading on neutrals and the configurations of more succesful generators... I guess I just thought 5 neutrals was the way to go based off what I read about Faraday and the efficent 1.5v threshold. (Assuming 12 volts, I should be getting 2 volts across each)

[dswareagle]

Oh duh that would be a bad idea... haha wow its like I forgot why I drilled those holes in the first place. I thought of trying four neutrals, but from what I read about electrolysis, it is, in its most ideal form (which mine is not), most efficent at 1.5 volts and anything over that is just wasted energy. But would 2-3 volts be more effective for what I'm doing maybe? Well, I'll try both things and get back to you. I know that I tried hooking up another battery in series before the generator (- to - to generator and + to + to generator) and the increased amperage made a signifigant difference until I adjusted it too high and it blew my 30 amp fuse :P Also I need to do some more reading on neutrals and the configurations of more succesful generators... I guess I just thought 5 neutrals was the way to go based off what I read about Faraday and the efficent 1.5v threshold. (Assuming 12 volts, I should be getting 2 volts across each)

well ideally u will get about 13.8V off of your alternator which would give 2.3 for 6 cell stack and 1.9 for 7 cell stack

id say that sounds like money right there if you are able to run it that well with the power sourch closer hook you pwm to that battery in ur trunk and roll with it bro

[aceras624]

why havent you increased your KOH% yet? or did I miss something?