Dry Cell getting very low production (Installed on 97 Grand Cherokee) New Member

[dswareagle]

why havent you increased your KOH% yet? or did I miss something?

not a bad idea there

[BioFarmer93]

why havent you increased your KOH% yet? or did I miss something?

Seriously Ace, good point! I went back and read the first post again and remembered that I had meant to say something about that a couple of days ago, but got sidetracked and forgot..
Full strength electrolyte is a bit more than 2 POUNDS of KOH flakes to 3 quarts of water (28% by weight). I'm really getting worn out by all the people I read about and see on YouTube telling folks to use such minuscule amounts of NaOh or KOH. The reason they do that is touted as "safety" but the reality of the situation is that they are either selling or using a poorly designed electrolyser that experiences thermal runaway when it's electrolyte is mixed to have the lowest possible resistance, thereby making a more efficient unit.

[-AK87-]

Alright, so the unit is effectively getting 12-13.8 volts depending on the charge of the battery and status of alternator. Anyway, I realize increasing the concentration of electrolyte is a way to increase amerage across the plates and generate more hydrogen, but from the experiments I've done it never seemed to change very much... :/ Back when I was running the 19 plate setup I essentailly had the same issue with production and hoped adding more plates and decreasing the plate gap would drasically increase production, but it didn't. (Better yes, but still only .5 lpm) So the first thing I tried was increasing the concentration, and when I had over a 30% strength solution, it made no noticable difference in prodution compared to my 10% solution hence why I'm using a weak solution now. (Why use more than you need to was the general idea) In addition, I ran two pices of threaded rod about an 1/8" apart into a roughly 40% solution (very concentrated) in order to see if I could get more than the 16 amps with the pwm turned up all the way, but nothing seemed to make a difference. Regardless, I still need to try different gauge wire/ using a battery in series, and changing the number of neutral plates and see what I get. Its just very frustrating to have the cell setup I have and see generators like the "punch slimline" that are supposively capable of generating 1lpm with 15 amps and only 7 plates. (Suposively the efficency is greatly improved by not having holes in the plates, but it can't really be determined from the pictures how the electrolyte circulates then...) http://www.punchhho.com/ Its roughly an inch thick I believe...

Anyway, the only other thing I've heard that could be an issue is the pwm I am using. Apparently some pwms are very cheap and actually waste a decent amount of electrical energy (Getting very hot, which mine does). I'm using a ogo 30amp pwm that can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/HHO-PWM-30a-Fa.../dp/B0035R3JN0 If the case is that it is sucking power much as the only review says, could anyone point me in the direction of a much more efficent, higher amperage pwm? I think that I may end up running more than one generator in series to get better production... Also, has anyone proven that changing the frequency of pulses of a pwm can help improve production on plate based hho generators? (vs tube based) Regardless, to really determine if the pwm is making a difference, I'm going to hook up a fully charged 13.8v battery directly to the generator with 8 gauge wire and take another production measurement. But based off what "punch" claims, it would seem that the holes I drilled in the plates are in fact destroying any hope of getting better efficency and more production. If anyone has seen one of those taken apart please let me know. It seems to me that if there weren't any holes in the plates, the solution would have to enter through gaps in between gaskets/o rings that space the plates, but that would cause current leakage through the ends much like a wet cell would it not? The whole idea of the dry cell was to eliminate the current leakage lost from the edges of the plates...

[-AK87-]

Also, I'd rather not use a super concentrated solution of KOH because I've heard that **** does baaaad things to engines and I do not currently have anything to
"filter" the gases besides the secondary bubbler. Also, I have found that in my design when the generator gets warm and then I leave it overnight where it gets down to 30s-40s, the gas in the main tank cools and draws the water from the bubbler into the main tank. I want to put a relief valve of sorts to prevent this and have a one way generic "flash arestor" that fits into the 3/8 hose and is commonly used for hho applications. However, I'm afraid that in operation, this will not properly seal and might vent some of the gases into the cabin of the jeep. I think this because in testing, when I open the cap after the unit has ran for awhile, a misty, sort of steam comes out. (I know its not steam because the generator doesn't get hot enough to boil water and the gas being created is very explosive... haha.) When I had the one way valve installed, even though it was in a position so that gas was not supposed to be able to leave, the same steam-like "stuff" (Yes very scientific, I know.) slowly leaked from the valve.

[-AK87-]

Ah well this explains it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDjnPMji9YU So running 4 neutrals and getting 1 lpm at 14ish volts with 15 amps... with gaskets open just near water port and gas port. If anyone could explain why a generator loses so much efficency becasue of the holes in the plates, I would really appreciate if you could explain it or maybe link me to somewhere where someone else does. :-)

[BioFarmer93]

Ah well this explains it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDjnPMji9YU So running 4 neutrals and getting 1 lpm at 14ish volts with 15 amps... with gaskets open just near water port and gas port. If anyone could explain why a generator loses so much efficency becasue of the holes in the plates, I would really appreciate if you could explain it or maybe link me to somewhere where someone else does. :-)

It's pretty straight forward, it's called current leakage because from an application standpoint that is exactly what is happening. The holes in the neutral plates that have not been insulated with Weldon-16 allow current to leak from one side of the plate to the other in a small concentrated area instead of "forcing" a stronger polarity shift that neutral or (more properly called bipolar) plates are depended upon to do. The other form of leakage that occurs through these holes travels the span of bipolar plates through the electrolyte from one power plate to the closest opposite polarity power plate.

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.. Please post some detailed photos of you reactor so that we may stop shooting around in the dark. Personally I think your PWM is most likely the culprit, especially since you stated that it was getting hot. They get warm, but hot is a sign of poor design.

[-AK87-]

Sorry, I'm not a forum guru, so just go to this link: http://www.troovi.com/vY04e2xZnAAn#tDhP72Z97zj2 I uploaded a pitcure of some plates laid out after I disassembled the (rebuilt version of the) first generator. And I put a picture of the first version with polycarb plates running so you can see the holes. (which cracked and spilled the soution all over my basement XD I work in the garage from now on...) I guess from that description I would assume I'm getting terrible current leakage because I have three holes that basically go through the entire generator (3 holes are lined up with each consecutive plate). Well regardless, I hooked up a fully charged battery straight to the generator with 10 gauge wire and got *drumrole* 1.7lpm! Insane difference in production... So in the jeep, I took out the pwm and got roughly 1 lpm which means that I'm going to have to rip out all the 12 gauge wire and run better stuff. I'm thinking, since I have a ton of nice 10 gauge wire, I will run two 10 gauge wires for positive and two for negative. That way I will have plenty of wire to handle whatever current I want to send especially if and when I want to expand the system. I just feel like an idiot now because I didn't do proper research on the current leakage issue and now my production is a fraction of what it could be... haha I don't think I could really patch the plates, I'd probably have to completely redo the design.

[aceras624]

wow couldnt help but notcie that there was a big change in production in that vid when he changed from 14 volts to 12 volts. Guess that was beacuse of the 4 nuetral plates. so the production would be all over the place with the altenator switching on and off. Glad I dont have that thing

[aceras624]

if the wire size was an issue, they would have gotten hot and/or melted!! I didnt notice you saying anything about them getting hot. also Did you use weldon around the holes? you can use weldon to get ride of that center hole all together