Fuel Octane

[RustyLugNut]

OK I still understand both sides of this argument. Not knowing the exact condition of your engine or its compression I can see where both could still be right if your engine has enough compression to knock causing the computer to correct it so you do not sense it. If it does then with higher octane then the computer would not sense the knock and not retard the timing and more HP could possibly be made. This very well might not be the case in your engine but a possibility. You I could assume are correct in regards to your own engine knowing or having used high octane and not found any difference. On the other hand the opposite is perfectly logical and is possible. I like it when I can say both are right. LOL Lets move on because I think this has strayed far enough to not be of much value to anyone. Even though I have had some disagreements with Madsceintist I still respect his depth of knowledge and experience when it comes to the automobile. It requires much more than just an efficient reactor to make this all worth while. That is just the beginning. The actual use of HHO to have a gain is much more involved especially with the new engines. They are pretty efficient to begin with but still have gains to be had in most of them. Now back to work

My first reference was for a single cylinder Lab engine I worked with in my undergraduate years. The control variable was the octane rating of the fuel. It drove home the point. Go back and look at the post. It is clear and concise.

And you are absolutely correct . . . this is unproductive. I tire of having to correct these untruths.

[myoldyourgold]

My first reference was for a single cylinder Lab engine I worked with in my undergraduate years. The control variable was the octane rating of the fuel. It drove home the point. Go back and look at the post. It is clear and concise.

This is my last post on this topic. Your single cylinder lab engine will only confirm what you have said, all accurate. If you had added a computer controlled injection system with a knock sensor and with the proper tune your results would be different. You can disagree but until you do the experiment I am not interested. You are right and so is Madsceintist.

Here is an example that I think explains this and is done every day. An EFI engine can be tuned so it runs on 86 octane and makes x hp running very smooth. The same engine can be tuned to make 2x HP with just a change in programing and 93 octane fuel. Now if you run 86 in this vehicle after this retuning you will have a real dog throw a code go into limp mode if you are lucky. So what made the difference?

[RustyLugNut]

This is my last post on this topic. Your single cylinder lab engine will only confirm what you have said, all accurate. If you had added a computer controlled injection system with a knock sensor and with the proper tune your results would be different. You can disagree but until you do the experiment I am not interested. You are right and so is Madsceintist.

Here is an example that I think explains this and is done every day. An EFI engine can be tuned so it runs on 86 octane and makes x hp running very smooth. The same engine can be tuned to make 2x HP with just a change in programing and 93 octane fuel. Now if you run 86 in this vehicle after this retuning you will have a real dog throw a code go into limp mode if you are lucky. So what made the difference?

You are now showing your ignorance. Just stop!

You don't understand. It is clear to all the capable readers. I just lost all credibility for arguing this point. I just got several emails from professional friends and employees laughing at me for even trying to argue such a SIMPLE and BASIC point with people who have NO LAB experience and NO training in SCIENTIFIC DISCIPLINE.

You have totally missed the point.

Two guys in a bar are arguing the classic comparison of briefs versus boxers. One of the guys says "I think pantyhose is much more comfortable and keeps me warm."

[myoldyourgold]

This is unbelievable but expected I was warned. By agreeing with you I am ignorant? What does that make you? I was trying to show you why the other position was taken and can not help it if you have a one track mind. You also are so opinionated that you have no room for understanding why others see things differently right or wrong. I was just getting ready to PM you some information to help you in your quest but now see that would be of no use at all. It would be impossible for you to ever see the other side of the coin. I expect you and your friends who most likely have never improved any vehicle's MPG with the use of HHO on demand will ever achieve anything is this field. You have no idea at all at what is really necessary and I doubt you ever will. You most likely wouldn't believe it if you stumbled upon it. Here I was hoping that you might be able to help with some of the technical aspects but I now realize that I was mistaken. I wish you the best of luck.

[Madsceintist]

BODDA ... BING....BODDA ....BANG...

Thank You
Thank You , Very Much..

[RustyLugNut]

This is unbelievable but expected I was warned. By agreeing with you I am ignorant? What does that make you? I was trying to show you why the other position was taken and can not help it if you have a one track mind. You also are so opinionated that you have no room for understanding why others see things differently right or wrong. I was just getting ready to PM you some information to help you in your quest but now see that would be of no use at all. It would be impossible for you to ever see the other side of the coin. I expect you and your friends who most likely have never improved any vehicle's MPG with the use of HHO on demand will ever achieve anything is this field. You have no idea at all at what is really necessary and I doubt you ever will. You most likely wouldn't believe it if you stumbled upon it. Here I was hoping that you might be able to help with some of the technical aspects but I now realize that I was mistaken. I wish you the best of luck.

You are so sure I am incapable of building a HHO system and achieving progress. You assume I have no automotive skills or HHO knowledge. You assume wrong.

I challenge you to a duel. You called me out.

So, I call you out. Right here in front of the whole Forum. I and others have called out MadSceintist to produce drawings, pictures and diagrams of his devices since he makes it plainly clear he is here to "help everyone" and yet he has never produced anything concrete except claims.

You claim to know so much and have improved vehicle systems so much and are here to help. . . let's see it. Let us RACE!

Take any vehicle of your choice legally sold and licensed to be operated here in the United States. It must be a car ( four wheeled) with legal seats for four people. It must run on liquid hydrocarbon fuel. No electric cars or hybrids. It must pass the emissions for the year it was produced. If the vehicle was produced before 1975, then it must meet at least those loose 1975 requirements.

I am quite sure you own one or can procure one, correct?

Modify the vehicle with your best HHO generator to achieve your best mileage at 60 mpg constant.

I will bring my SCCA scales and we will weigh the amount of fuel used before and after to accurately determine fuel use. We will use GPS accurate to 0.01 miles to determine the distance driven. We will document our progress during the build here on this forum. This way we can be of informational value to the viewership. Then we will meet at a time and place agreed upon. And, we will make it a simple shootout. He who achieves the highest mileage wins! In case of a tie, the vehicle with the lowest emissions wins. No questions asked.

You don't have to worry about any "non-disclosure agreements" since we don't need to look at any of your "secrets". The mileage will tell the tale.

To be fair about it, I will agree not to use any of my outside professional resources so as not to have an unfair advantage. I and my immediate family (wife and son) will be the only ones to work on the vehicle. We will build it right here in our home garage not in a pro shop. We will keep track of our costs and document them. We will cap the costs at 2012 USD so as to prevent anyone from re-constructing their car in carbon fiber and other such silliness.

Are you game? Or are you going to make excuses?

Hey, why don't we open this up to everyone who wants to participate. So many people come on here and talk the talk. Let us see who can walk the walk and deliver!

I personally think you are a "couch inventor". You never really build anything. Prove me wrong. Oh, sure you can have your associates help you. Just follow the rules outlined above, and they can participate.

This will be informative and inspiring to our HHO community when they see successful applications "racing" in a grudge match! Contact the local paper and News station. Let's make it an educational opportunity.

What do you say? Let's settle this once and for all.

You called me out. I am more than willing and able to answer.

How about you?

[Madsceintist]

Title say enough........?

[RustyLugNut]

Title say enough........?

You are welcome to join too if you are capable.

[byrd9790]

Well given that im very versed in octane raiting as well it bothers me me to see that the mentor title is just given out. We have had much accurate octane infomation given out by RLN and a cpl others. I was under the assumption that mentors were professionals and had direct knowlegdge in the subjects in which they mentor. I hope that we all stay focused and remember there is always time for all of us to learn something new in life and we should look forward to those moments in life. Just because i breath air 24/7(Dry air contains roughly (by volume) 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.039% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases) doent make me an air mentor. Some of us have done alot in the automotive industry on several levels and we do have the education and knowledge to to clear the air. Octane is a very complexe subjuct and so is the science of the ice particularly when you add in emmissions and drivablity and fuel is more complex than both of those combined. The basic def of octane rating is real close to being spot on. OK HHO FORUM LETS JUST HUGG IT OUT

[myoldyourgold]

I am sorry, I have no time to duel with you or anyone else for that matter. When our products hit the market you can buy then and do your own test and post the results anywhere you want. I have no doubt you are capable but by what you have stated so far you have not to date done much or if you have, you have not stated it unless I missed it which is also possible. Some on this forum have been building and testing for over 5 years and have made a number of discoveries with out the help of academia. There are hundreds of vehicles that are running today testing various aspects of this technology. Some recent CARB lab tests have confirmed some things that academia have said are impossible. In due time all of this will become public unless politics gets in the way along with other things.

Octane rating is simply a measure of knock resistance. With all else being equal, octane rating does not mean 93 burns "better" than 86 or has more inherent "power" or energy. My little Diahatsu 3 cylinder engine, designed for 86 octane, will not gain anymore power or mileage from 93 octane ( with all else being equal).

I thought I made it very clear that this statement is absolutely true and even posted information to back it up. I also posted the other point of view how controlling knock in an ICE make it look like there is a difference. You missed the point all together. You can build more HP buy reducing the knock with higher octane in an ICE under the right conditions. All of this seams to have gone over your head and you took it as I and others did not understand the basics.

Settle down this is not a duel. Your style of presentation does not give any room for a different point of view right or wrong but creates friction. This tends to put down possible discoveries that do not fit in your superior mold. Lighten up and try not to be so argumentative and final in your presentation. Good solid scientific information is good but there has to be room for new discoveries and variations of known principles.

You can take my not wanting to duel with you any way you want the facts are it will not help anyone and will be a wast of both of our time and money which does not grow on trees at least for me. I have no need to feed my ego and you shouldn't either. There is a lot better places to place our resources than a project like you presented. Lets get back to the task at hand. Even though a lot of the problems have been solved some understood and some not there is much more to do at least for me with some very interesting new discoveries which when applied to this field increase the yield many fold which results in better gains by reducing amp draw. Lots of work to get done so lets get to it and stop this useless banter.