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Thread: Painless experiment in HHO

  1. #1

    Default Painless experiment in HHO

    For those of you just starting to read my thread, please note that my experiments started with open bath designs and then moved on to dry cells.

    There is some useful information in the earlier posts (posts 1 through 29), but I wouldn't recommend duplicating any of my open bath designs.

    The dry cell adventure starts at post 30, please skip forward to this point if this is the avenue you're interested in.

    I provide information here and on youtube in one hope, that it will help others down the path to HHO production and MPG gains. My information is free and open source for the good of our wallets and mother Earth. I also encourage others to participate in this thread for questions, input, advice or other positive means.

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    At least I'm hoping it will be painless... time will tell

    I'm finally ready to start building my system and wanted to run my plans by everyone to see if there is anything I haven't thought of or could be doing better, taking into account everyone elses experience.

    I'm going for a fairly large setup for my truck, a 2006 Dodge Ram with the 4.7L magnum v8. I'm currently averaging 17mpg with this vehicle and do about 1400 miles per month just going back and forward to my job, before I even start adding in private miles.

    I'm guessing that I'm going to need some serious output for this size of engine. I'm going to shoot for a minimum of 1.5LPM before I start integrating this system into my truck, but I'm thinking I will be needing more.

    My casing is a toolbox measuring 15.6" x 8.4" x 8.1" and made of polypropylene, from what I've read it has a max operating temp of 180 F and a melting point around the 300 F limit. Not sure if this is going to be a bit too near the mark, but I'm mounting the unit behind the front bumper so it will be getting a good airstream when the vehicle is in motion. If this box doesn't work out, then I'll probably opt for a pelican case.

    I'm using 16 stainless steel switch plate covers (from Lowes) and am trying two separate configurations (see my diagram):

    Configuration A - Single cell in series, basically +NNNNNNNNNNNNNN-

    Configuration B - Twin cells in parallel, which will be +NNNNNN- -NNNNNN+

    In both configurations, the plate gaps for each pair will be 3mm and there will be an approx 1" gap between each pair of plates. The plate pairs are joined using nylon nuts and bolts.

    I've taken ideas from smack, plumajob and smith03jetta for these setups.

    Any comments (good or bad) and suggestions welcome!
    Attached Images
    Last edited by Painless; 11-02-2008 at 07:44 PM.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  2. #2
    webeopelas Guest


    I'll be watching this thread. Your results will help me better understand the series/parallel advantages/disadvantages.

    From what I have read here I think you will get more heat in your second config at the same amperage due to the voltage across each cell will be 3.5V versus 1.75 volts in the series config.

    Interested to see the difference in output if there is any.

    I have an 06 Dodge Ram 5.9L Cummins. Looking at doing the same thing and think I want about 2LPM. I am willing to put it in the truck bed if I need the space.

  3. #3


    I too have questions in my mind reference the series vs parallel comparison, the way I see it though I'm thinking the following will happen:

    I'm going to assume a working current of 20 amps for the purpose of this description:

    Config A: Single cell in series

    This will result in 20 amps moving from one side of the electrolyte to the other, assuming a steady 12v this will result in 1.5v at each pair of plates.

    Config B: Twin cells in parallel

    This will result in 20 amps entering the system in the middle of the plates resulting in a 10 amp flow towards the left hand positive and another 10 amp flow towards the right hand positive. Additionally, our 12v input will result in 3v per plate pair (electrical minds, please correct this if my thinking is wrong!).

    I'm thinking (again, please correct!) that the higher voltage per pair in the parallel config will result in more production per amp and also more heat per amp, however, the parallel setup halving the amp current should help address this.

    As always, it's a try it and see scenario.

    I'm also planning on trying the above with the plates standard and then running the whole exercise again with the plates roughed up by sanding with 36 sandpaper and comparing output.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  4. #4
    mario brito Guest


    good luck to you experiment

    please keep posting results, problems, etc

    just one detail, that i believe that is not correct. more voltage will not increase production. from what i've read, anything above 1.5V/plate ( some say 1.23V, others 1.43V, so i'm shooting to a round number like 1.5V) will only increase heat.

    i think the best solution is to put more N plates untill you get the closest possible to 1.5V/plate. that will lower the heat and maximize production.

    too many N plates will lower the V/plate to a value that makes production impossible/very low.

    but i could be wrong, so look for other opinions.

    and now, i'm going to use an expression i've learned yesterday...

    just my 2 cents



  5. #5


    I finally managed to find some time to build my test generator, I've also got some pictures and videos from building and running the generator in both plate configurations I mentioned. To recap:

    Config A: 16 plates in series +NNNNNNNNNNNNNN-

    Config B: 2 packs of 8 plates in series, wired in parallel +NNNNNN- -NNNNNN+

    Below are some pics of my plates during building, I ended up mounting the plates inside two plexiglas mounts which will both hold the plates in position and seal the edges to prevent current leakage around the plates.

    The below pictures are about 2.5mb in size each:

    Close-up of a plate pair

    Another close-up of a plate pair

    All 8 plate pairs mounted inside the plexiglas

    Movie of my plates during building:

    Movie of configuration A, almost no production:

    Movie of configuration B, decent production!:

    I have to say that I expected configuration B to be the most productive, so I wasn't disappointed there, however, I was totally shocked at how big the difference was.

    Configuration A is using less than one volt per plate, at 12v it would be 0.75 per plate. Looks like I'll need 19.68v to reach the ideal 1.23v per plate.

    I'm disappointed that I couldn't perform any LPM measurements on config B, it was definitely producing a lot of gas. Surprisingly, it seemed to produce just as much gas on the negative plates as on the ends, I expected there to be a difference. Perhaps the plexiglas insulation around the edges is helping out a lot there?

    Next, I want to find a good case to use, probably a Pelican as they seem to be giving good results, and do some gas volume tests.

    Really pleased with how my first attempt turned out, wouldn't of been anywhere near as successful without the insight these forums have given me so far
    Last edited by Painless; 08-13-2008 at 12:49 PM.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  6. #6
    bigapple Guest


    wow thats a really big difference... i think shooting for ideal volts per cell is good but once u stretch it out so far (the 16 plates) the voltage has a very hard time managing to keep its strength to get from one plate to the other... i just experimented with 2 sets of 8 like u did (except +NN--NN+) and i have to say, splitting it up thru just a few neutrals cuts heat out a bunch and gives pretty good results

    great videos, great research, great insight

    this forum has helped me too, but seeing someone go to these lengths and sharing the information has a very positive effect on the way people plan to set up their hydro gens... nice work

  7. #7


    Thanks for the comments! I believe wholeheartedly in neutrals too. The one inch gap between each pair is a good setup too, thanks to plumajob and smith03jetta for pioneering that one!

    I've been giving some thought to working further to the ideal voltage, was thinking about using a 10 plate setup in each parallel 'pack', which at the nominal alternator output of approx 13v would equal 1.3v per plate. Then I thought about it some more and began to consider what would happen when my battery started to near the end of it's life and voltage dropped below 12v.

    I think 8 plates per pack, as you mention, is definitely the way to go.

    My hunt is still on for a watertight case, I visited my local Boaters World on the way to work yesterday, they had a Pelican 1400 case but wanted $109 for it!!!!!!!! Most of the online sites are only asking in the region of $60 for this case.

    I checked out a cheap watertight case from Walmart this morning, only $10 and I got what I paid for... leaks like a sieve. Guess I just need to stop beating about the bush and spend the money on a good Pelican.
    Last edited by Painless; 08-14-2008 at 11:41 AM.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  8. #8


    I just gave in and ordered a Pelican 1450 from Cases by Pelican:


    80 odd bucks (including shipping) is a hell of a lot of money for me right now, but I know it's going to be worth it in the long run.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  9. #9
    timetowinarace Guest


    Thought's on 'ideal' voltage.

    1. My own research(from sources other than this forum) says that production will continue to go up untill 2V is reached. After 2V only heat is produced. As 'work' is being done, heat is produced. Even 1.23V will produce an amount of heat. I don't know where the 1.5V 'ideal' came from. I suspect that because the SS plates will drop a bit of voltage on thier own that this 1.5V came about. Here is how I look at it. At 1.23V electrolysis begins. This is the minimum production level for voltage for electrolysis. Production will increase up to 2V. This is the maximimum production level for voltage for electrolysis.

    2. In order to consider shooting for an 'ideal' voltage it must be considered that the cell itself is ideal. An open bath design cannot be ideal. There is going to be some current leakage.

    My opinion, take it for what it's worth: Shoot for two volts. It is the true 'ideal' voltage.
    Last edited by timetowinarace; 08-14-2008 at 05:17 PM.

  10. #10


    Quote Originally Posted by timetowinarace View Post
    In order to consider shooting for an 'ideal' voltage it must be considered that the cell itself is ideal. An open bath design cannot be ideal. There is going to be some current leakage.
    I certainly agree with that statement, this was very much on my mind when I built the cell. The plexiglas I sandwiched the plates into seems to make a difference. I've also been giving some thought to designs where the electrolyte is pushed through the cells, rather then them simply bathing in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by timetowinarace View Post
    My opinion, take it for what it's worth: Shoot for two volts. It is the true 'ideal' voltage.
    Worth a lot! Think I'll play with this once I get my pelican and can measure flow LPM.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

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