Painless experiment in HHO

[Jaxom]

There's a device used on some older car vacuum systems called a "vacuum modulator." It will control airflow through the modulator based on a vacuum signal. You could probably use one to regulate the airflow from the genny to the intake based on the vac. level in the genny, but I don't know how throttle transients and WOT conditions would affect it.

Now that I think about it, it may be possible to use something similar to regulate HHO flow based on manifold vacuum....i.e. allowing more HHO to flow when vacuum is low, and thusly creating a delivery setup proportional to engine load. You'd then need to power the genny through a vac switch (or PWM controlled by a vacuum sensor feedback loop) so that it would put out more HHO when demand rises, and less HHO under lower demand. Basically, the switch or PWM would maintain constant HHO pressure in the genny, and the vac. modulator would allow increased HHO flow as vacuum decreases. The PWM could also be setup to monitor genny temperature to prevent thermal runaway under extreme loading. What do you guys think?

[resago]

I think this is a good direction to go. rpm or load based production.

[Jaxom]

I have a prototype PWM built that increases the current flow to the genny proportionally to engine load, but it's still an untested prototype until I get the system up and running in my Jeep....I don't know what kind of results it will produce. It will probably have a delay time on throttle changes, but hopefully it won't be too severe.

The prototype is capable of driving the genny at up to 60 amps.

[daddymikey1975]

I'm no electrical engineer, but using a tach source to drive the PWM's duty cycle should be easy way to do this. usually the trigger wire going to a coil us what we connect to when we install remote start systems to monitor tach. it fires each time the cyl. does. or use a fuel injector signal wire.. would want a frequency counter here though as the cars computer uses a pwm with a variable duty cycle to trigger them, but they DO trigger once per revolution, just like spark plugs do.

just my .02

[Painless]

In terms of controlling the amount of vacuum, I'm already using a ball valve to do this. I have to say though that its hard to adjust finely.

If we are going to look at adjusting output in relation to fuel demand then I would say that our setting should be determined based upon RPM and TPS. This should give a value that is very close to load.

I can see pick up delay being fairly significant. This could be somewhat offset by using large changes in TPS increases to initiate a full on and then back off type of increase. This should minimise delays.

[daddymikey1975]

In terms of controlling the amount of vacuum, I'm already using a ball valve to do this. I have to say though that its hard to adjust finely.

If we are going to look at adjusting output in relation to fuel demand then I would say that our setting should be determined based upon RPM and TPS. This should give a value that is very close to load.

I can see pick up delay being fairly significant. This could be somewhat offset by using large changes in TPS increases to initiate a full on and then back off type of increase. This should minimise delays.

so basically what your saying is (for example) use the TPS to monitor demand, and at idle or up to X position, gen puts out 30% (or your own dialed in low setting) and once the TPS reads above a certain position, she steps up to say 90% ??

kinda like a low and high based on demand to keep it simple..

not a bad idea...

[paulm39083]

Gentlemen,

Just for the heck of it ......... what if you were a Co. and looking for a profit designing and building a workable, reliable dry cell HHO system for autos.

the idea is to make it work without costing tons of money, and at the same time reducing R&D to a manageable time frame. then to market you would go.


but first we define the science, then we design the parameters of the system based on what others have done and recent developments.

we already know the science works, it is old as dirt.

we know how an ICE works and how the manufactures have added electronics to help control emissions and to aid in the performance of the engine. It's almost self tuning,

Russ is trying to overcome one of the systems that is typically designed to do the exact opposite that HHO is doing. and in order to make the two compatable Russ will have to redesign the wheel ( well not exactly that)

Vacuum is described by the operation of the MAP. high vacuum low fuel demand. low vacuum high fuel demand.

seemingly not a useful formula for HHO unless something exceptional is done to control the process of injecting HHO without upsetting the ECU or other systems that support the fuel management arena.

sounder technology is already available to allow the process to work without trying to make something where something may not be available, it takes time and MONEY to works against something more than if you work with something.

I think that in the case of HHO there is enough present day experience to know that some systems should be left to their own devices while others can be manipulated to our benefit. finding which is which is more the challenge.

I have read every word of this thread and am incredible impressed with all that have contributed to the process. especially Painless who has shown a tireless doggedness to get this thing under control, lesser researchers would have given up a long time ago.

I believe that Russ is further along than he thinks, evidence is in the shadows I know that, but soon a breakthough will occur. It's not the science that is slowing this progress, or the design of the cell, no I think not.

rather it is the control of the systems that is slowing progress.

I would think that there must be an assumption that the fuel management systems will not give up their jobs easily. The O2 sensor, MAP, MAF. IAT . all have a stake in the outcome.

It has already been proven that ALL of these can be manipulated to the advantage of the user.

and to some degree a plan has beem mapped out as to the process of which should be done first and why.

I don't think a conclusion can be made as long as the fuel management systems of the more modern vehicles are in charge in exactly the same way as they were before the additon of HHO.

They must be addressed to some degree or other. Until that is done, there very welll could be little to no noticable improvement in MPG.

there will be improvement in efficeincy of the ICE but it probable would not be indicated by better MPG......... likely that would be found at the tailpipe.

Ok....... I have done what I had promised myself I would not do....... spouted........ sorry. I have spent years in the process industries and have seen hundreds of projects researched and I do know that not one was successful without following basic research parameters, no shotgun approaches, simple and low cost first, more advanced (complicated) and expensive last.

If you were a Co. that is how you would do it.

OK I'm done


later

[Painless]

I certainly agree with you, Paul. As for my relentlessness, I'm a computer analyst by trade and am used to analysing situations and allowing logic to control my thought processes. I also don't give up easily.

Both you and Mike are correct in that HHOHoper and I are battling a very sophisticated computer here. I believe this very strongly.

The solution may be to tackle this at the source, the ECU program, this is an avenue that my professional background would be beneficial to, along with the detailed ICE knowledge of others here.

I know that there are programmers out there, or more parameter changers as I see them. They don't rewrite the code, they change the values it is working with in its data tables. I have yet though to find a unit that will allow me to adjust fuel trims, timing etc in isolation (as smith03jetta is able to do), this would be an ideal step if it were possible.

Further from this, I know that programmers are available that will rewrite eeprom chips, effectively allowing you to change the entire program, although I don't know if they will work on the later gen rams.

Basically, financial situation only allows me to work step-by-step at the moment. I'm working on putting together my own dual voltage adder and city / highway MAP adjuster at the moment but have had to stop as I need some more components that I don't have the spare cash for at the moment.

Right now, all I can say is this, I'm not giving up! I can also say that I am in debt to ALL that have contributed in any way, shape or form to my experiment. Its just a real shame that we are all so far apart. I'm sure that a day, a lot of beer and some group head scratching would definitely be beneficial if not just downright fun.

[Painless]

Well, so far so good, after the ten minute glamour run with HHO and water injection through the vacuum my truck didn't blow up and I didn't get run off the road by an SUV full of oil company mercanaries with MAC-10's. Perhaps the stinking load of trash in the pickup bed kept them away for now?

I'm off for my 40 mile trip to work in about five minutes and I'm going to draw up some sort of diagram, if I have the time, while there so I can show better how I have things connected.

Whilst trolling through the dodge talk forums earlier I read about some products from a company called Perfect Power that makes ECU piggy-back devices. These allow you to custom tune fuel, timing and other maps with a laptop and apparently work on my truck. I'm going to read up some more on these later.

[Jaxom]

so basically what your saying is (for example) use the TPS to monitor demand, and at idle or up to X position, gen puts out 30% (or your own dialed in low setting) and once the TPS reads above a certain position, she steps up to say 90% ??

kinda like a low and high based on demand to keep it simple..

not a bad idea...

I think Russ is implying more of a peak-and-hold type thing. Say if the TP increases by 25% or more, the controller will command the genny to full power for a second, then reduce power to a level proportional to TPS. That would basically create a "HHO surge" any time you open the throttle quickly. Factory fuel control systems do the same thing with the injector pulsewidth to prevent hesitation on takeoff or sudden throttle stabs....it's called Acceleration Enrichment.