Painless experiment in HHO

[daddymikey1975]

I think Russ is implying more of a peak-and-hold type thing. Say if the TP increases by 25% or more, the controller will command the genny to full power for a second, then reduce power to a level proportional to TPS. That would basically create a "HHO surge" any time you open the throttle quickly. Factory fuel control systems do the same thing with the injector pulsewidth to prevent hesitation on takeoff or sudden throttle stabs....it's called Acceleration Enrichment.

That makes more sense to me.. however, like russ mentioned, there's bound to be a lag between the PWM commanding max output and the gen actually putting out ... could this be overcome??

although, before we can even get into this type of controlling circuitry, we need to get russ' truck sippin fuel and gulping HHO :-)

[HHOhoper]

That makes more sense to me.. however, like russ mentioned, there's bound to be a lag between the PWM commanding max output and the gen actually putting out ... could this be overcome??

although, before we can even get into this type of controlling circuitry, we need to get russ' truck sippin fuel and gulping HHO :-)

I agree. I think that all might be getting a few steps ahead.

[alpha-dog]

Russ, I discovered something today that you are probable well aware of. On my Dodge truck I dicided to set the offset farther on the o2's to indilcate a richer condition. Well, I just reset the MPG gauge on top in the middle of the cab and began a little drive. To my supprise my mpg's were much worse but then got better, but not good enough. So rather than take a hammer to the truck, I thought about it a little and wondered how mpg is calculated. I haven't the slightest idea but it is calculated. I refilled my gas tank and actually had a gain in mpg. So now I'm resetting only when I refil. Hope you weren't bitten by this mistake.
Russ

[Painless]

Russ, I discovered something today that you are probable well aware of. On my Dodge truck I dicided to set the offset farther on the o2's to indilcate a richer condition. Well, I just reset the MPG gauge on top in the middle of the cab and began a little drive. To my supprise my mpg's were much worse but then got better, but not good enough. So rather than take a hammer to the truck, I thought about it a little and wondered how mpg is calculated. I haven't the slightest idea but it is calculated. I refilled my gas tank and actually had a gain in mpg. So now I'm resetting only when I refil. Hope you weren't bitten by this mistake.
Russ

I've been monitoring both the overhead gauge and calculating every time I fill up also. The overhead is only good over a long average and tends to exaggerate slightly (imagine that, eh?). For example, over a full tank my gauge said over 17 and the math said 16.4.

My guess is that the gauge simply uses the on-time of the injectors against miles traveled. I cannot see how it would need to be more complicated than that?

[Painless]

That makes more sense to me.. however, like russ mentioned, there's bound to be a lag between the PWM commanding max output and the gen actually putting out ... could this be overcome??

although, before we can even get into this type of controlling circuitry, we need to get russ' truck sippin fuel and gulping HHO :-)

I agree, but however, here's an idea to stop the lag time:

Place a pressure sensing switch on top of the HHO generator, set it to switch the generator off/on when it drops below a pre-determined PSI of HHO. Lets say, for example, that figure is 10 PSI.

With the pressure valve controlling HHO production, we would then need our load sensing circuit to instead actuate a small butterfly valve inside the HHO delivery line to control the amount of HHO being released to the intake according to demand.

Sounds just like the fuel pump / fuel pressure rail / injector scenario, doesn't it?

The trick will be:

A) Tuning the switch on/off PSI to ensure that enough HHO is generally available.

B) Tuning the opening and closing of the butterfly valve to control HHO amount against fuel demand.

It would also probably be a good idea if engine switch off resulted in the butterfly opening when the generator shut down, this would allow the last remaining stored HHO to be consumed for safety reasons.

[Painless]

Ok, so an update reference my 40 mile trip to work with the new setup today:

Everything was fine for the first 15 odd miles, then, whilst cruising at 50 down a long stretch I noticed the MPG meter started decreasing. This is unusual as the road was flat and it never usually happens on that stretch. As I approached the town of Seaford (my city driving section) I cut my cruise off to slow down to 40 mph. I drive this route almost with my eyes closed and noticed that the truck slowed down from 50 to 40 under engine breaking a lot quicker than normal, I would estimate about 70% of the normal distance.

I pulled over into a parking lot and looked under the hood, my 1 litre water vapour container, which I had filled to exactly the 700ml mark, was bubbling so ferociously that it appeared to be full. The pipe from this container to the drying filter and on to the vacuum was fairly active with moisture.

I backed off the ball valve slightly until the vapouriser container settled down and went on my merry way to work without another issue. I reset my mpg meter straight away and achieved 20+ mpg by the time I'd gotten to work, although I'm not taking that as acceptable due to my resetting.

I'm considering resetting my ECU when I leave work tonight.

[Jaxom]

With the pressure valve controlling HHO production, we would then need our load sensing circuit to instead actuate a small butterfly valve inside the HHO delivery line to control the amount of HHO being released to the intake according to demand.

They have factory parts that can handle this too. GM's linear EGR valve uses a duty cycle controlled solenoid valve to regulate exhaust flow back into the intake. Canister purge solenoids are also duty-cycled solenoid valves, just much smaller and lighter (used for evaporative emissions control.) The hardware is available, and the factory PCMs are capable of the task as far as hardware is concerned....if you want to go all the way it can be programmed into the factory PCM and controlled along with fuel and spark and everything else. It's just way beyond what we can do at home.

I think that a mechanical flow control (like a vacuum modulator) is the cheapest and easiest way to go for progressive delivery. The pressure switch circuit can maintain a steady HHO supply, and the vacuum modulator will allow more flow as vacuum decreases. It's just a matter of finding the right modulator, and adjusting the supply pressure to "fine tune" the delivery rate.

[theramsey3]

Painless,
Thank you for helping me out to be able to post. I think personally that you have reached your maximum/near maximum gains you will see without modifying your map sensor and/or your o2 i have given a lot of thought to your unique o2's bias voltage and I found some schematics for a dual EFIE that I am very confident will work on your truck and can be built for about $15. I would like to see one of these built, tested and evaluated. I would love to build one myself but I am very tight on money right now; but as soon as I can afford to buy parts I will put one on my '02 Durango 4.7L 2x4 and post my results. http://www.alt-nrg.org/efie.html This is the parts list http://www.alt-nrg.org/efiepl.html

[Painless]

Painless,
Thank you for helping me out to be able to post. I think personally that you have reached your maximum/near maximum gains you will see without modifying your map sensor and/or your o2 i have given a lot of thought to your unique o2's bias voltage and I found some schematics for a dual EFIE that I am very confident will work on your truck and can be built for about $15. I would like to see one of these built, tested and evaluated. I would love to build one myself but I am very tight on money right now; but as soon as I can afford to buy parts I will put one on my '02 Durango 4.7L 2x4 and post my results. This is the parts list http://www.alt-nrg.org/efiepl.html

You're welcome, and welcome to our community!

I'm building a poor mans EFIE at the moment with some changes in resistance values to counter my dodges higher bias voltage. If that doesn't work I'll try out Zero's. Unfortunately, I'm in the same place as yourself with cash atm.

[Painless]

As promised, I have just knocked up a very basic diagram of my current HHO and water vapour setup, hopefully, it will clear up the picture for any that are still head scratching:



After doing some reading, it appears that my main problem with too much water going in is because the bottle can replenish it's air supply as the vacuum is applied. For a water vapour only system, no outside air is allowed in. Now I just need to think of a way to do this properly and include my HHO.