Painless experiment in HHO

[BoyntonStu]

Your right. Whenever you buy a solder iron or any heating elemant its measures in watts. P=IE so if current goes up so does watts, or voltage goes up so does watts. How does this help?
Russell

Simple as P=IE?

OTOH P= IxIxR

The current for a given resistance is generating power by its square.

It is called I^2 power.


BoyntonStu

[Painless]

Your right. Whenever you buy a solder iron or any heating elemant its measures in watts. P=IE so if current goes up so does watts, or voltage goes up so does watts. How does this help?
Russell

How does this help...

Assuming that my statement is correct about watts being the source of heat, then we can hypothesize:

1) A cell with a small gap can conduct W1 watts of power with a voltage of V1 through a resistance of R1, resulting in V1 / R1 amps (A1) of current. This scenario will generate H1 BTU's of heat.

2) The same cell, but with a larger gap can conduct W2 watts of power with a voltage V2 through a resistance of R2, resulting in V2 / R2 amps (A2) of current. This scenario will generate H2 BTU's of heat.

Therefore, if my hypothesis holds correct:

If W1 = W2

Then:
V1 < V2
R1 < R2
A1 > A2

And, more importantly:
H1 = H2

Which, if it held true, would mean that we could compensate for larger cell gaps with higher voltage without a loss of MMW efficiency.

NOTE: This all depends on the statement about heat being the result of Watts and not just Amps being true.

Russ.

[BoyntonStu]

How does this help...

Assuming that my statement is correct about watts being the source of heat, then we can hypothesize:

1) A cell with a small gap can conduct W1 watts of power with a voltage of V1 through a resistance of R1, resulting in V1 / R1 amps (A1) of current. This scenario will generate H1 BTU's of heat.

2) The same cell, but with a larger gap can conduct W2 watts of power with a voltage V2 through a resistance of R2, resulting in V2 / R2 amps (A2) of current. This scenario will generate H2 BTU's of heat.

Therefore, if my hypothesis holds correct:

If W1 = W2

Then:
V1 < V2
R1 < R2
A1 > A2

And, more importantly:
H1 = H2

Which, if it held true, would mean that we could compensate for larger cell gaps with higher voltage without a loss of MMW efficiency.

NOTE: This all depends on the statement about heat being the result of Watts and not just Amps being true.

Russ.

You are focusing in the wrong area.

Do you want to dissipate resistive losses in the electrolyte?

These are the I^2R losses that I have been mentioning.

The closer the gap with the maximum percent NaOH or KOH possible, your cell will have the lowest electrolyte resistance.

If you double the gap, the electrolyte resistance will also double and you will need to double the Voltage to compensate.

Why would you want to do that?

Simply because you cannot get flat plates that would allow closer gaps?


I recommend that you use the correct SS for the job.

BoyntonStu

P.S. I will give you plans and detailed instructions on how to build an Amoeba Cell. You may call me, etc.

The cost to you is that you must also build a duplicate for me to test and to keep.

[Painless]

You are focusing in the wrong area.

Do you want to dissipate resistive losses in the electrolyte?

These are the I^2R losses that I have been mentioning.

The closer the gap with the maximum percent NaOH or KOH possible, your cell will have the lowest electrolyte resistance.

If you double the gap, the electrolyte resistance will also double and you will need to double the Voltage to compensate.

Why would you want to do that?

Simply because you cannot get flat plates that would allow closer gaps?


I recommend that you use the correct SS for the job.

BoyntonStu

P.S. I will give you plans and detailed instructions on how to build an Amoeba Cell. You may call me, etc.

The cost to you is that you must also build a duplicate for me to test and to keep.

Stu,

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to advocate any method's here of overcoming an inability to provide a smaller gap. This was more of a brain airing to provoke discussion and an interest in whether or not a 'voltage compensated' cell could achieve the same MMW as its smaller gaped brother when consuming an identical amount of watts.

I would suppose that it is more-so a fact of wanting to answer the question than to solve my own investment limitations with it.

I also have my own design ideas for a more efficient dry cell, if I do end up investing in some flat stainless then I would want to pursue perfection of this design, which I would certainly open-source.

Russ.

[alpha-dog]

Stu,

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to advocate any method's here of overcoming an inability to provide a smaller gap. This was more of a brain airing to provoke discussion and an interest in whether or not a 'voltage compensated' cell could achieve the same MMW as its smaller gaped brother when consuming an identical amount of watts.

I would suppose that it is more-so a fact of wanting to answer the question than to solve my own investment limitations with it.

I also have my own design ideas for a more efficient dry cell, if I do end up investing in some flat stainless then I would want to pursue perfection of this design, which I would certainly open-source.

Russ.

You guys ever thought about makeing the generator oscillate. Two series cells looks a lot like two capacitors, well also like batteries, But I'm thinking of a colpitts oscillator. You know put a big inductor accross the positive terminals and shoot one pos. term. with your pwm.
Russell

[H2OPWR]

This whole subject is giving me a headache. We are all going back and forth on the subject of watts or amps because of the suggested amp draw per square inch for best effeciency. In order to ever actually get the answer we all seem to be questioning. I would like to know if anyone knows how the actual amp per square inch rule of thumb was come up with in the first place. Is it even accurate? Is it accurate for an open bath cell to reduce current leakage? Where did this come from. Please if anyone knows I think that information would be very valuable.

[Jaxom]

Taking into account my own thoughts and Jaxoms, there is one question that we need to answer:

If we have a given electrical medium (wire, HHO generator, electrical heater, it doesn't matter), when we load it with the following scenarios:

A) 10 volts at 50 amps for 500 watts of power.

B) 20 volts at 25 amps for 500 watts of power.

Will scenario A generate more heat in the medium than scenario B, or will they both be equal?

In other words, is it amps that generates heat or watts?

So many times, I have come across people running cells at 14 volts in a +NN-NN+ etc configuration and stating that there are no problems with heat. This leads me to think that perhaps watts is the heating factor?

Russ.

I feel like you've overlooked a very important factor here: heat is not the only thing being generated in our cells. For an electric heater, the two would be identical. For us, heat is only a byproduct of the energy wasted while trying to produce HHO. In an ideal electrolyzer neither would generate any heat, but both would have the same HHO output.

The heat generated can be measured in Watts, although the Navy taught me to think of it as I^2xR losses. For any non-productive resistance in a cicuit, the power wasted by that resistance is equal to the resistance times the square of the current flowing through it. This wasted power is almost always converted to heat.

I believe that in an electrolyzer the only "productive" resistance is that of the plate-water interface. The resistance of the electrolyte itself, the resistance of the plates, and any other unknown resistances all generate waste heat. That would explain why the Ameoba does so well...tight spacing minimizes R(electrolyte), and small plates keep R(electrode) down.

[DaneDHorstead]

Without trying to **** anyone off (which I seem to be pretty good at)............

Heat is resistance!

It is not Amps, Watts, Volts, or anything other, than resistance.

[DaneDHorstead]

Simple as P=IE?

OTOH P= IxIxR

The current for a given resistance is generating power by its square.

It is called I^2 power.


BoyntonStu

Stu;

With all due respect, what seems simple to your mind, is not so obvious to most!

We are not all physisist, and do not posess exalted levels of intellegence.

Just the same, heat is resistance, and your later explanation of plate spacing, increases resistance, and decreasing gap distance reduces resistance, as also does plate thickness, (thus your former request for thinner plates, and spacers).

Agian, I don't want to argue, but we " forum, as a whole", understand very little, of what is obvious to you.

[Jaxom]

Resistance alone does not generate heat. Current flow across a resistance generates heat. Since we know that P=VxI, and I=V/R, we can do some simple algebra and find that P=IxIxR. Thusly, the power dissipated across a given resistance is equal to the resistance times the square of the current across it (known as I^2xR.) In an electrolyzer, most of this power is used to split water, but some is wasted and converted to heat. The less heat you waste, the higher the thermal efficiency of the electrolyzer. This is backed by the accepted advantages of a dry cell over a bath cell....less currrent leakage around the plates, higher efficiency, less waste heat....it all ties in together.