Painless experiment in HHO

[Jaxom]

I've heard it described like water a few times. Voltage is like pressure....how hard the electrons are being pushed to move through the circuit. Amperage is like velocity....how fast the electrons flow through the circuit. Resistance is like the size of the pipe....how many electrons can flow through a component at once. Wattage is like flow rate...how many electrons travel through the circuit in a certain amount of time. It's not an entirely accurate analogy but it's a commonly used one.

All of this is a major tangent anyway.

[Painless]

I like the water anology the best, I like to picture a river with the amps being the width of the water, volts being the speed of flow and watts being the total gallons moved from point A to point B. Resistance is the friction of the water upon the river bed, a bigger river bed (higher gauge wire) will allow more water to be moved.

At least I have provoked some interesting dicussion here, this is really what we need. We have to keep bringing our rules and guidelines into question with both theory and testing, this is the only way we are going to improve our cell efficiency.

I'm going to be rebuilding my cell today by taking the middle neutral from each set of five and turning it into a pole plate. The gap and everything else will remain the same. I will take some MMW measurements of the current cell first (as it no longer has the bottom holes blocked) and then perform same on the rebuild. I will also take long term temp readings.

As always, I'll post results.

Russ.

[BoyntonStu]

You are standing in front of a dam that is 100 feet tall and it is full to the brim.

No water is flowing over the dam.

There are 2 pairs of spigots drilled into the dam.

One set is placed a foot down from the top and the other pair is placed a foot from the bottom.

Each set is comprised of a 1" Diameter spigot and a 2" diameter spigot.

Let's turn on the top pair.

There is only a foot of water pressure coming from the 100 foot dam. The water pressure is analogous to voltage. Think 1 foot of pressure equals 1 Volt.

If you measure the number of gallons of water that comes out of each spigot in a minute you have measured the current flow.

Let's assume that the 1" spigot delivered 1 gallon in 60 seconds.

How many gallons would you expect the 2" spigot to deliver?


Answer 4 gallons. The area is equal to the diameter squared.


The 2" spigot has 1/4 the resistance as the 1" spigot.

Now you are at the bottom pair of spigots.

Would you expect to see the same current flow as before?


The 99 foot water pressure (Voltage) will force 99 times the number of gallons per minute through each bottom spigot than the 1 foot pressure forced through the top ones. This is what high Voltage does for you, it pushes more Amps. 99 vs 1.


I hope that this helps,


BoyntonStu

[DaneDHorstead]

You are standing in front of a dam that is 100 feet tall and it is full to the brim.

No water is flowing over the dam.

There are 2 pairs of spigots drilled into the dam.

One set is placed a foot down from the top and the other pair is p placed a foot from the bottom.

Each set is comprised of a 1" Diameter spigot and a 2" diameter spigot.

Let's turn on the top pair.

There is only a foot of water pressure coming from the 100 foot dam. The water pressure is analogous to voltage. Think 1 foot of pressure equals 1 Volt.

If you measure the number of gallons of water that comes out of each spigot in a minute you have measured the current flow.

Let's assume that the 1" spigot delivered 1 gallon in 60 seconds.

How many gallons would you expect the 2" spigot to deliver?


Answer 4 gallons. The area is equal to the diameter squared.


The 2" spigot has 1/4 the resistance as the 1" spigot.

Now you are at the bottom pair of spigots.

Would you expect to see the same current flow as before?


The 99 foot water pressure (Voltage) will force 99 times the number of gallons per minute through each bottom spigot than the 1 foot pressure forced through the top ones. This is what high Voltage does for you, it pushes more Amps. 99 vs 1.


I hope that this helps,


BoyntonStu

Stu;

In so much as an explanation, that is exactly what, I mean!

It is easy to comprehend, even to the simpe minded (such as myself, and a few others, on the forum).



Now to address the issue of heat, vs wire size,

Wire size should in no way effect heat inside the cell (unless too small of a wire, was used to connect the cell outside the cell itself!



Come on people! We are talking about the inside of cells (in the electrolyte solution).

We have all seen photos of cells being tested on video, where copper wires were used to bridge plates, and aluminum spades were also used to connect those wires (all placed below the electrolyte surface)

Simply put, copper wires (or any other wire type, excluding same grade stainless), has no business being used inside a cell "wet, or dry"! The same applies to the aluminum spade connectors, or ring connectors.

I am amazed at the talk on the forum, where folks spend good money on 316L plates, and then they use 18-8 bolts to connect termionals, or even using aluminum straps, to connect to the battery!

Absolutely nothing inside the cell, should differ from the grade of stainless, you are using, unless it is a nonconductive artical, such as spacers, the membrane gasket, or "Nylon" hose barbs, etc. All metals used in the solution, need to be of the same exacting grade, of the same materials!

And, note that looking at e-bay, it's surprising just how many drycells you see, using brass hose barbs, or filler caps!

If people can't grasp that simple concept, they are actually trying to get hurt!

Again, wire gage outside the cell (if too small), will cause heat problems, but the substance of the discussion is heat (resistance) inside the cell.

[DaneDHorstead]

Resistance alone does not generate heat. Current flow across a resistance generates heat. Since we know that P=VxI, and I=V/R, we can do some simple algebra and find that P=IxIxR. Thusly, the power dissipated across a given resistance is equal to the resistance times the square of the current across it (known as I^2xR.) In an electrolyzer, most of this power is used to split water, but some is wasted and converted to heat. The less heat you waste, the higher the thermal efficiency of the electrolyzer. This is backed by the accepted advantages of a dry cell over a bath cell....less currrent leakage around the plates, higher efficiency, less waste heat....it all ties in together.

If a pipe has a hole in it, it won't leak (if there is no fluid, in it)

That is not the point!

The subject (I believe), was heat generated from within the cells.

If we are not talking about heat generated from within the cells, then the disscussion will go on forever, without addressing the common problem!

There are any number of explanations for heat, including a carbon build up on electrical contacts, but those situations, are not on point! (and note also, that no one mentioned carbon contacts, except me, but yes carbon on contacts does generate heat)

But, it aint got a thing to do, with HHO!

Volts is the speed the current travels. Amps, is the current. Watts is power generated (or consumed).

Comparison of a rivers flow, to watts, is not practical until you tap that power, and use it, such as a water wheel uses the rivers flow! Note however, that I can agree with the comparison, if you are given that the water does not flow, unless it is tapped for a given use.

Just as current does not flow, unless some switch is thrown (or short circuited).

In this case, heat is caused by resistance (both from plate conditioning (or lack thereof), and/or plate spacing, and catalyst (solution mix).

[DaneDHorstead]

When did anyone say anything about the wire size being an issue?? I used it as an example... but never said anything about it having anything to do with the inside of the cell???

Shane;

The example is correct, but not on point!

I don't want to argue, with anyone, but the point is heat generated from within the cell.

Heat is generated by rubbing two sticks together also, but it's not the issue!

[DaneDHorstead]

Agreed,

Now let me repeat:

Now one thing that did interest me is Bob Boyce has said that running his "the cell" in series (24V 1X amp) is more efficient than running it in parallel (12v 2X amp). If I remember correctly he said that in parallel it puts out 14 lpm and in series it puts out 21 lpm. Note that this is at the same watts.

If I remember correctly he said it had to do with opposing magnetic alignment of the cells???

You are correct! He did say exactly that, although I don't understand what is different about opposing magnetic allignment of plates.

How else, could they be possibly alligned? For any given (simple) cell, you have one annode,and a cathode, usually accompanied by neutrals, in between, although many do not use neutrals, but simply repeat annode/cathode/annode/cathode/annode/cathode, etc.

But using neutrals (inducted current), it can only be laid out, with opposing magnetics, as God intended it!

The Annode is a pole plate, positively charged, as also is the cathode a negatively charged plate. Induction, automaticly alligns the neutral plates to be negative on one side, and positive on the other, each side facing it's electrical opposite, in the order of their positioning. This is done automaticly, through natural induction, and in no way, was it alligned that way, by human design! The design, was done by far greater power, than any human can claim!


I started to tell you that, Overtaker posted the link to those vidieos, but in checking, it was actually you, that provided the link.

Yes! I viewed all of them (except I didn't watch the one that was duplicated, for a second time).

[Painless]

From what Bob said:
+NNNNNNNNNNN- @ 24V is producing 150% more gas than
+NNNNN-NNNNN+ @ 12V
Both have 2v per plate so I do not see how that could be...... I guess I'll run some tests.

That is interesting.

From my point of view, I can see that the 24v setup would be a more 'natural' flow of current.

I had a small disaster with my setup in my truck yesterday, but before that I was able to take some measurements:

Firstly, I re-evaluated the performance of the 5 neutrals setup to see if there was any difference between it with the bottom holes blocked off and without. My conclusion, there was a difference, but it wasn't huge.

With bottom hole blocked (Post 598):

Volts: 13.9
Amps: 15
ML: 500
Time: 22 seconds
LPM: 1.36
Watts: 208.5
MMW: 6.54

Without bottom hole blocked:

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 15
ML: 500
Time: 22
LPM: 1.36
Watts: 211.5
MMW: 6.45

I then took the cell apart and changed it to a 2 neutral configuration thus:
First stack: +NN-NN+NN-NN+
Second stack: +NN-NN+NN-NN+

By the time I had filled the reservoir and performed the wiring, it was pitch black outside and brass monkeys cold, therefore I elected to continue my experiment on Sunday afternoon, after church.

The cell ran easily at 45 amps and wanted to drive my ampmeter way off the scale past it's 60 amp max, if I let it. Unfortunately, upon arriving home on Sunday afternoon, I switched off the cell with the master switch and noticed that I could still hear the PWM running. Upon further investigation, it appears that my relay had fused in the closed position (it's a 70 amp relay!!!!). At this point, I removed all the electrical connections as I didn't want any danger of my cell running with the truck off.

I plan to wire the cell manually for some readings either today or tomorrow at the latest.

Russ.

[Painless]

Just went outside to rig up my cells power directly and take some measurements, however, my flow meter had frozen completely and so had my bubbler! LOL!

I suppose winter is really here now.

The good news is that my relay now seems ok.

[Painless]

I've come to the conclusion today that we really need to start looking for an alternative electrolyte. My experiences with KOH and NaOH in maximum strength solutions have been anything but good. The hose barbs on my reservoir have already worked loose of the goop I used to attach them and I'm still recovering from the caustic burns to my arms and hands. These electrolytes do perform well, but I think we really should find an alternative that is safer and easier to build with. To date, I haven't found any adhesive that will stand up to this stuff and cannot think of any other way to attach my hose barbs. The front of my truck, under the hood, is covered in white powdery spots where tiny amounts of electrolyte have spilt.

Distilled white vinegar isn't a bad choice, but needs to be stronger. I've tried it before but could not pull enough amps with it. We may be able to add more acetic acid to increase it's conductivity, perhaps? The forumula is CH3COOH, could there be any nasty by-products from electrolysis with this?

Any other ideas?

Russ.