Painless experiment in HHO

[Painless]

hey russ.


I have re-piped ( tubed) my dry cell bubbler config to look

almost exactly like yours including the white distilled vinegar.

I have very limited room in my town and country van so have

had to use a 2 " dia bubbler but it is nearly 16" long . with

tightly wound tubing inside. .gas exits at the bottom or near the bottom

of the bubbler and makes it way to the top then to the engine.

I still get a lot of moisture with this config. I did loop the tubing

on it's way to the engine as sort of a water trap........ it collects

water but it will eventually accumulate where I will need to evacuate

the water. curious if anyone with a similiar setup has solved the moisture

issue as yet and if do how.

I did build a dual MAP enhancer and also found the MAP as well right on

top of the intake manifold.. right where is supposed to be. I plan of installing

this sometime next week. But before I do much more I need to address the

moisture/water issues.

also I found a PCB for several O2 enhancers and MAP with schemantics

here:http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Proje...n/Hydrogen.htm


later

That's interesting, I get absolutely zero moisture in my system with that setup, the 2" tube shouldn't make make much difference. My tube is 3" and 12" high.

I wonder if perhaps your bubbler isn't getting any airflow? You will need a good constant airflow to keep the vinegar cool, otherwise the condenser won't work.

[HHOhoper]

Painless and HHOhoper: I was wondering if you guys are using enough HHO for the size motor that you each have (4.7) ?? The reason I'm wondering is that I thought I read somewhere (and I can't remember right off hand) that we needed about 1LPM for each Liter in engine displacement . .

My current design should net me around 1.5 LPM and i'm going to use it on my 1.6L engine.. I plan on using 2 of these for my wife's dodge caravan (3.3L) .. . am i mistaken in my assumption or is that the general rule that we've been following ? (we meaning the HHO community)

just wondering what you gentlemen thought about thie amount of HHO per liter of displacement per motor.. and granted, each engine/ecu system reacts diffrently, but what's your thoughts ??

mike

Mike,

For a good while, I was completely set on the notion of bigger engine = more HHO, but I found that to not be absolute.
I posted this story on another thread, so sorry for the repeat, but when we VERY first started with HHO, our first cells were primitive to say the least. They didn't produce a whole lot and wouldn't last long without over-heating. The Suburban averaged 11-12 MPG as-is. When we added these first cells, we went in through the manifold and it went to 18 MPG! Knowing how primitive and poorly those cells were made, we figured it HAD to be a mistake although we checked it several times. After reading what everyone else was saying, we believed that a big engine had to have a lot of HHO otherwise no real gains could be had. So we went back to the drawing board and copied the Bob/Smith model which completely blew our primitive cells out of the water in every way. Well after hooking up the new design and pumping in about 1 to 1.5 LPM, the MPG went down to 16 MPG. Long (as if it isn't long already) story short, we adjusted the new cell to produce only as much as the first ones were (and moved to the air box) and it went up to 19 MPG. The bubbler has about 3 nickle-sized bubbles pop up about every two seconds - not a whole lot of anything. Well after all the testing, that proved to be the most fruitful. We used the exact same method for their motorhome and it went from 6 MPG to 13!!! That thing has a 5.8L V8. So in this case my opinion is that there are exceptions to that rule.
Personally, I think Painless has it right in saying that you need to start out small and keep increasing until you see the MPG drop - you then know that you've reached your max with how you have everything currently set-up. My two pesos.


Russ,

Thank you so much for all the info and help!

[paulm39083]

That's interesting, I get absolutely zero moisture in my system with that setup, the 2" tube shouldn't make make much difference. My tube is 3" and 12" high.

I wonder if perhaps your bubbler isn't getting any airflow? You will need a good constant airflow to keep the vinegar cool, otherwise the condenser won't work.

I am thinking out loud here.......... it seems to me that the moisture may not be a result of condensing. rather it could be that the gas bubbles drag liquid with them as they break through the surface of the vinager the liquid adheres to the bubbles and only break away due to gravity. or the weight of the liquid is more than the gas bubbles can carry. hence, they break away...... this may be one of the reason I accumulate moisture in the loop or trap in the tube going to the engine. Mositure carryover is a common problem in the production of steam for use with propulsion systems .. steam turbines

it is usually solved using a " dry pipe" a pipe that had many holes drilled into it....... the idea is that steam can get into the pipe but not the moisture. this might be based on the same principle .......lacking the pressure of course that a boiler would create.

Thoughts ????

later

[Painless]

Let me throw out a description of my entire HHO path and see if we can pickup any differences:

As HHO and electrolyte pours back into my resorvoir, it travels up and through some screen door mesh that is packed tightly into the area below the exit barb. I find that this prevents foam from leaving the reservoir, the tube then runs from the exit barb to the input of the cleansing bubbler passing through a check valve on the way. Then, it spirals down the hose inside the bubbler, which is filled with distilled water to above the entrance barb (I stopped using vinegar) and exits the end of the hose, bubbling up and out the exit barb to my intake.

As I mentioned before, keeping the bubbler cool is of paramount importance. Mine is located behind my trucks grill. If yours is within the engine compartment then this would definitely negatively impact the condenser.

You could try attaching some kind of filter to the end of the hose spiral to break up the bubbles smaller. Although, transformation of the vapor to water should already have happened.

Another factor may be the temp of the HHO and vapor as it leaves your generator? My dry cell never gets over 110 F, if your system is hotter then that might be making it more difficult for the condenser to do its job.

[BoyntonStu]

Mike,

For a good while, I was completely set on the notion of bigger engine = more HHO, but I found that to not be absolute.
I posted this story on another thread, so sorry for the repeat, but when we VERY first started with HHO, our first cells were primitive to say the least. They didn't produce a whole lot and wouldn't last long without over-heating. The Suburban averaged 11-12 MPG as-is. When we added these first cells, we went in through the manifold and it went to 18 MPG! Knowing how primitive and poorly those cells were made, we figured it HAD to be a mistake although we checked it several times. After reading what everyone else was saying, we believed that a big engine had to have a lot of HHO otherwise no real gains could be had. So we went back to the drawing board and copied the Bob/Smith model which completely blew our primitive cells out of the water in every way. Well after hooking up the new design and pumping in about 1 to 1.5 LPM, the MPG went down to 16 MPG. Long (as if it isn't long already) story short, we adjusted the new cell to produce only as much as the first ones were (and moved to the air box) and it went up to 19 MPG. The bubbler has about 3 nickle-sized bubbles pop up about every two seconds - not a whole lot of anything. Well after all the testing, that proved to be the most fruitful. We used the exact same method for their motorhome and it went from 6 MPG to 13!!! That thing has a 5.8L V8. So in this case my opinion is that there are exceptions to that rule.
Personally, I think Painless has it right in saying that you need to start out small and keep increasing until you see the MPG drop - you then know that you've reached your max with how you have everything currently set-up. My two pesos.

This is a very important post.

Your MPG in your motor home went from 6 to 13 MPG on small output.

How many mile have you driven it at 13 MPG?

Was this without EFIE or O2?

BoyntonStu

[HHOhoper]

This is a very important post.

Your MPG in your motor home went from 6 to 13 MPG on small output.

How many mile have you driven it at 13 MPG?

Was this without EFIE or O2?

BoyntonStu

I'm not sure as to the exact miles. It was a trip of several hours, though. I have to include the disclaimer that I was not actually there - it was my folks on their vacation. I feel pretty confident that the results aren't inflated because the return trip is geographically going uphill and all the holding tanks were full on the way back.

No mods whatsoever.

The next time they use the thing, I'll be sure to ask if it's still hitting that high.

[Painless]

Today I modified my setup to do two things:

1) Utilise vacuum AS WELL as the throttle body to suck HHO into the engine.

2) Utilise the distilled water in the bubbler as a vapour source.

I took a bunch of pictures to show how I achieved this. Firstly, I should note that I decided not to use the PCV as it was placed so far back under the bulkhead it was a ***** to reach (and I'm 6'6" tall!). Instead, I used a vacuum that was running off of the brake booster. Not the main booster to manifold line, but another side line off of it's connection to the brake cylinder. The photos should elaborate more:

This shows the brake cylinder with the yellow arrow pointing to the tube where I added the T for the vacuum connection:



This shows a wider view to point out the vacuum and throttle body injection points I am using:



T fitted to the existing vacuum hose and extra hose added for brake cylinder connection:



New T fitted to vacuum:




... continued on next post as I can't embed more than 4 images.

[Painless]

Continued from last post....

Another T added to the HHO delivery line going into the resonator (and on to the throttle body):



Two T's are now joined together, linking the vacuum input with the HHO delivery tube:



Breather barb fitted to the cleansing bubbler:



This is the air stone which is lowered into the cleansing bubbler and connected to the breather barb:



I took my truck for a hour drive to Seaford and back, it's a shade under 40 miles in total. I achieved 19.5 mpg. I did notice that the sound of the vacuum was very audible inside the cab at low or closed throttle (when the vacuum is highest). It sounded like a metallic whistle. I think this was the vacuum sucking air from inside the resonator next to the throttle body.

I also noticed that the amps pulled by my generator dropped quite significantly by the time I got back home. Under the hood, with the engine still running, I could see vapour travelling through the vacuum line. I pulled the hose from my generator reservoir off of the check valve (where it goes into the bubbler) and noted that the vacuum was preferring to suck air from there, rather than through the air stone. There was a slight vacuum on the breather barb, but nothing compared to the vacuum on the check valve. I definitely need to think of a resolution for this.

I can't call this test conclusive as my HHO output dropped very significantly, I'm assuming that this is because catalyst / electrolyte was taken from the generator reservoir, although it didn't appear to be much at all. Perhaps the vacuum was effecting production in my cell? Not sure why that would be, I can't see that enough electrolyte was taken to effect production that much. Amps went from 30 to 20.

Once I figure out the answer to these questions, I shall be ready for another test:

1) Why did the amps drop?

2) How do I make the vacuum prefer the breather barb?

[HHOhoper]

Very nice pictures, Russ!

I have a few questions.

Weren't you getting 19 MPG before this change?

What is an airstone? I'm a little confused as to how that's all hooked up and then also as to the relationship and set-up with your "breather valve" and your checkvalve.

I was thinking about this set-up last night and I was wondering if the vacuum would just suck from the resonator side and it looks like that might be the case. Is that actually going to cause any problems?

How does the engine indentify and deal with a vacuum leak? This whole realm is a little foreign to me and I think if I understood it better, I might actually be able to come up with some ideas for solutions to some of these obstacles.

[alpha-dog]

Let me throw out a description of my entire HHO path and see if we can pickup any differences:

As HHO and electrolyte pours back into my resorvoir, it travels up and through some screen door mesh that is packed tightly into the area below the exit barb. I find that this prevents foam from leaving the reservoir, the tube then runs from the exit barb to the input of the cleansing bubbler passing through a check valve on the way. Then, it spirals down the hose inside the bubbler, which is filled with distilled water to above the entrance barb (I stopped using vinegar) and exits the end of the hose, bubbling up and out the exit barb to my intake.

As I mentioned before, keeping the bubbler cool is of paramount importance. Mine is located behind my trucks grill. If yours is within the engine compartment then this would definitely negatively impact the condenser.

You could try attaching some kind of filter to the end of the hose spiral to break up the bubbles smaller. Although, transformation of the vapor to water should already have happened.

Another factor may be the temp of the HHO and vapor as it leaves your generator? My dry cell never gets over 110 F, if your system is hotter then that might be making it more difficult for the condenser to do its job.

Why did you stop useing vinegar?
Russ