Painless experiment in HHO

[alpha-dog]

While I'm awaiting an opportunity to try out my new cell at decent amps, I thought I would share another HHO interest I've started looking more into of late. It's all Scarecrows fault, by the way! ... HHO Torches.

All I'm using at the moment is an 18 gauge needle, connected to a ball valve through to a balloon full of HHO. I want to make sure I have the flashback issue nipped before I try and connect to a cell.

I did find something interesting in Lowes yesterday for just under $12:



It's an adjustable pressure relief valve:



The inside is basically an adjustable spring loaded seal:



In this picture, you can see the adjuster inside the removable cap:



I connected this up to my tire inflator / air compressor and played with the adjustment, I found that I could adjust it all the way down to as little as 1 PSI cracking pressure and up to over 75 PSI. Should make a decent flashback arrestor, I thought.

I also picked up some fine bronze wool on my way to work today, I'm thinking that I should have several lines of defense if I'm to use a torch:

1st line: Bronze wool behind the torch tip.

2nd line: Resettable flashback device on the bubbler.

3rd line: Blow off cap on my reservoir.

Would welcome anyones input!

Russ.

What section did you find that in? I'd like to get one for myself.

[Painless]

What section did you find that in? I'd like to get one for myself.

It was in Lowes plumbing section, in the area where all the pumps are.

[SmartScarecrow]

What section did you find that in? I'd like to get one for myself.

I can give you some basics to consider ...

the torch tip I use is a mig welding tip ... they are available with a number of different orifice sizes ... choose your orifice based on the volume of gas you are producing ... for a small output device in the 2-3 lpm range, you should use a .020 or .025 tip ... if your device can deliver 3-5 lpm, you want a bit bigger orifice, maybe a .025 up to a .035 ... and of course if are making more gas than a Taco Bell franchise, see if you can your hands on a .060 tip ... these are hard to find but are out there ... but you need to pushing maybe 7-10 lpm to get good effect out of one ...

I have also seen a conventional torch tip used with high output devices capable of 5 lpm or more ... so if you have a conventional welding setup and want to use that type of outlet, I think you will find it works well as long as you can feed it enough gas ...

what keeps the HHO from burning right back up the tube and blowing up your bubbler is the velocity of the gas coming out of the tip ... this is why its important to match the orifice to the volume of gas you are generating ... if you get enough velocity at the tip, it will not flash back on you ...

the bronze wool in the body of the torch caused too much flow restriction for me ... I removed it ... I rely on the flash back relief on my final bubbler and a similar device on my reservoir/bubbler ... yes, I use a double bubbler arrangement on my torch ... I normally have the final bubbler pretty close to the work, maybe within 5-10 feet or so ...

get yourself some eye protection ... you will want to be able to observe the effect the torch has on various materials ... without polarized lenses or maybe welding goggles, you will miss most of the fun ... watching tungsten turn liquid then into a gas is wild !!! my understanding is that it takes about 6000F or more to do that ... see if you can figure out where the heck that much energy is coming from ... I cant figure it out ... my math tells me I would need a blast furnace to generate that kind of temperature ... there is something about that darn torch that is breaking some rules ...

have fun with your torch ... can tell you its easy to get hooked on that bad boy ...

[Painless]

After repacking my flashback arrestor last night, I gave it a good test this morning. It took dozens of successive hits with no issues. Seems the secret is to tightly pack as much fine bronze wool into it, hose barb to hose barb, leaving no gaps.

My cell, at the moment, is only running at 12 volts and 3.5 amps, so you can imagine how pitiful the output is. I was amazed that by taking an 18 gauge needle and squeezing down the size of the hole I could sustain a torch flame!

The heat of the flame eventually warped the needle and caused a flashback and had to be snipped and reshaped each time. Not one of the flashbacks got past the arrestor though.
The little flame was enough to heat up thin aluminum to a white hot state. It was also fun to play the torch onto cold thicker metal and see the water pool and evaporate as the H bonded back with the O.

Tomorrow, if its not too cold, I plan to install the monster cell in my truck and install the relief valve on my bubbler. I've been debating on where to set the relief valve pressure wise. What I'm going to do is hook my air compressor up to the bubbler at the HHO input and close off the output. I'm then going to see how much PSI it can take before any leaking occurs and set the relief valve about 15% below that value. Ill then try the HHO baloon test on the setup.

Russ.

[BoyntonStu]

I can give you some basics to consider ...

the torch tip I use is a mig welding tip ... they are available with a number of different orifice sizes ... choose your orifice based on the volume of gas you are producing ... for a small output device in the 2-3 lpm range, you should use a .020 or .025 tip ... if your device can deliver 3-5 lpm, you want a bit bigger orifice, maybe a .025 up to a .035 ... and of course if are making more gas than a Taco Bell franchise, see if you can your hands on a .060 tip ... these are hard to find but are out there ... but you need to pushing maybe 7-10 lpm to get good effect out of one ...

I have also seen a conventional torch tip used with high output devices capable of 5 lpm or more ... so if you have a conventional welding setup and want to use that type of outlet, I think you will find it works well as long as you can feed it enough gas ...

what keeps the HHO from burning right back up the tube and blowing up your bubbler is the velocity of the gas coming out of the tip ... this is why its important to match the orifice to the volume of gas you are generating ... if you get enough velocity at the tip, it will not flash back on you ...

the bronze wool in the body of the torch caused too much flow restriction for me ... I removed it ... I rely on the flash back relief on my final bubbler and a similar device on my reservoir/bubbler ... yes, I use a double bubbler arrangement on my torch ... I normally have the final bubbler pretty close to the work, maybe within 5-10 feet or so ...

get yourself some eye protection ... you will want to be able to observe the effect the torch has on various materials ... without polarized lenses or maybe welding goggles, you will miss most of the fun ... watching tungsten turn liquid then into a gas is wild !!! my understanding is that it takes about 6000F or more to do that ... see if you can figure out where the heck that much energy is coming from ... I cant figure it out ... my math tells me I would need a blast furnace to generate that kind of temperature ... there is something about that darn torch that is breaking some rules ...

have fun with your torch ... can tell you its easy to get hooked on that bad boy ...

Test the LPM with and without your flashback arrestor.

In several experiments, the LPM output actually increased with my FBA.

FWIW

BoyntonStu

[Consaka]

Larry,

We need folks like you.

I am now satisfied with 6-6.5 MMW.

When you go above 7 MMW I will copy your design.

BoyntonStu

(sigh) what is the calculation for MMW please.

--BF

[Painless]

(sigh) what is the calculation for MMW please.

--BF

MMW is calculated by:

M / (V*A)

Where M is the number of millilitres of HHO produced in one minute, V is volts and A is amps.
For example, if we produce 1 litre of HHO per minute at 14 volts and 10 amps:

MMW = 1000 / (14*10) = 7.1428571

Please note, however, that this calculation doesn't take into account:

* HHO volume expansion by heat or pressure
* Steam vapour

Russ.

[mytoyotasucks]

(sigh) what is the calculation for MMW please.

--BF

http://site.altpropulsion.com/MMWCalc.htm

[Consaka]

MMW is calculated by:

M / (V*A)

Where M is the number of millilitres of HHO produced in one minute, V is volts and A is amps.
For example, if we produce 1 litre of HHO per minute at 14 volts and 10 amps:

MMW = 1000 / (14*10) = 7.1428571

Please note, however, that this calculation doesn't take into account:

* HHO volume expansion by heat or pressure
* Steam vapour

Russ.

Thanks Russ, I really appreciate it. should I stumble onto anything You will be the first to know..

Bryan

[Painless]

Installed the monster cell mk2 in my truck today. I also installed the normally open solenoid valve to let the reservoir breath when the cell is off.

My systems now runs HHO from the reservoir into my condensing bubbler and onward from there into a second bubbler. Both bubblers contain a 50/50 mix of distilled water and denatured alcohol.

The electrolyte was mixed at 3 cups of KOH flake in a half gallon of water.

Amp draw was no problem at all, 50 amps can be hit at about 55% duty cycle. For now, I'm running her at about 30 amps max, to be on the safe side.

The secondary bubbler is my old water injection container, this way I can get that into the intake with the bubbling of the HHO.

My next step is to add current sensing to my PWM using alpha-dog's schematic.

Russ.