Painless experiment in HHO

[Painless]

I've notched up 160 miles since installing my new 25 plate generator and the O2 extenders. By the amps that are being drawn on the highway I would say that I'm pumping between 1.75 & 2 LPM right into the throttle body on my 06 Ram 4.7.

I'm feeling deterred because I still haven't seen any highway gains other than the consistent extra 1 MPG I get with just HHO. From what I've seen, doubled up O2 extenders work very well on the 4.7 Rams yielding up to 33% MPG improvements but I still haven't seen one solitary extra MPG.

As I mentioned, I reset my ECU right after installing the extenders, but I would of expected to see something by now. Especially when others are having results with the same O2 mods. Now, RadGenH2O on youtube is pushing between 2 and 3 LPM from his cell to get 33% rise highway and 50% rise city on exactly the same year and powertrain truck, but I think I should see SOMETHING at almost 2 LPM.

Don't know how long I'm going to have to wait for my KOH to turn up, it's not even been shipped yet. Until I have that I can't increase my electrolyte concentration and up my production to see if that does the job.

More of a rant than a post for which I apologise, just wanting to see some payback for all the time, effort and money I've put out on this.

If you have any ideas, please feel free to comment. Perhaps someone like Jaxom with the ECU knowledge can answer whether or not my ECU reset is causing a hold up on gains here?

[RMForbes]

I did not have any luck with O2 extenders either. My system is ODBI with one wire O2 sensors. I built a EFIE that I got off the Zerofossilfuels website several months ago and it works great for me. You, however have an ODBII system that is far more complex. You can get interface devices to allow you to alter the E-PROM settings on your ECM. That may be your best choice (albeit not the cheapest).

[paulm39083]

good morning from Venice Florida. Go redsox.

I have like many others been following this thread with great interest.

all of you participants should feel proud and blessed to be

part of an inspiring effort to " get er done"

excellent excellent work and reporting. Painless, you have

a wild work ethic.

I am a real estate agent here in florida so I have some spare time.

not a great thing but ok for now, I also am over 60 years of age and

am famous for " what's he gonna do next"

I do have an engineering degree that causes me to regularly walk around my

garage looking at " my stuff " to see what I can come up with. lately it is

HHO, I having a blast with you guys and all the try and error and progress.

so I don't feel like my mind is wasted competely while not using it for building

something or other. work or not don't matter.

I thought that since Painless is having trouble getting results that have

long in anticipation, it would be worth the time to think about it.

so I have ............

If you are producing HHO and your engine is enjoying it's benefits, yet

refuses to provide you with the benefit of better MPG. Two things enter my

otherwise cluttered mind.

1. as a group . is there confidence that more HHO is better than less HHO?

its just a question.. is this a case where less is more? another question

I know you all understand what happens when HHO is in the combustion

chamber, it generally is all good ...... the dry cell seems to carry more

moisture with it than the other designs ..... is this a thought to ponder?


2. If we assume that our ECU ( yours Painless) is doing it's job . it should

react to the emissions results sent to it by the O2 sensor, unless you can

accurately change the actual result or the actual signal to the ECU. You

already know that, it seems that in your case with the productivity you are

experiencing and assuming that the LPM is no a negative ( not sure of that)

Than you are left with a more technical confusion, how do you get the ECU

to act in a positive way to HHO being introduced to you engine? another

question? Considering the amount of work and effort you have expended, I

would think you deserve some cudos from your engine, it is only fair,

Maybe you should consider buying a ready made EFIE from a reputable

source, I know that money is tight. Heck to listen to our political machine

hear in the US we are all broke and going broker,,,

but that aside. Home built rigs sometime work, electronic is a tricky

business, so there must be someone on this forum who has the talent to

build you a device that will fool your ECU using whatever sensor sounds right.

The components are cheap, the labor to build one is not, so how many

on this thread would contribute a fair ( that means cheap) amount to some

enterprising electronics guru here on the forum.

we need to get painless up and running ......... I will pay for half the parts

anyone else ??????????

I can order whatever someone tells me to and pay with my paypal account

send it wherever it needs to me sent

I think extenders and the like are not worthy of advanced research.

The concepts are historic ..... the devices to do what painless needs are

available so for the sake of completion lets " get er done"


by the way my first dry cell leaked like a sieve.........

so did the second....

the third is doing just fine and making HHO .......... I love this stuff.

[Painless]

Paulm39083,

A very British good morning to you Sir from Maryland's Chesapeake Bay Peninsula

Thanks for your kind comments, I'm 110% committed to sharing the good and bad of my HHO experimentation. I benefited a lot from others contributions under the same practice and truly believe that this is a technology for the 'common folk'.

" 1. as a group . is there confidence that more HHO is better than less HHO? "

This is the way that I view it:

On every vehicle setup, there is a 'sweet spot' of HHO production up until which gains can be had without further mods than just the introduction of HHO. My own truck was consistantly yielding an extra 1 MPG with HHO at highway speeds. Past this sweet spot, more HHO has the potential to increas mpg further, but work must be done with the ECU to prevent it riching up A/F mixture and reducing or even negating your gains.

" 2. If we assume that our ECU ( yours Painless) is doing it's job . it should
react to the emissions results sent to it by the O2 sensor, unless you can
accurately change the actual result or the actual signal to the ECU. "

Some observations here:

I've already tried playing with the O2 sensor by building a voltage adder circuit, however, my Ram's O2 sensor is a little different in that instead of a 0-1v signal it utilises a 2.5v bias sending a signal between 2.5 and 3.5v. All I seemed to be able to do is either make the engine stumble and conk out or throw CEL codes. I don't think a traditional EFIE will work due to the voltage bias.

Some further experimentation I did last night on my way home from work is leading me to believe (again) that I'm not producing enough HHO to make a difference (of more than 1 mpg) at highway speeds. 99% of my driving is at 50-55 mph. Here are two facts that seem to support that hypothesis:

1) When I pulled my O2 sensor to add the extenders, it was completely soot free, had my engine been running rich to compensate for HHO then I believe that I should have seen some soot deposits on my sensor.

2) There is a small part of my journey through a town called Seaford that is 30-35 mph. It's only for about 10 minutes and therefore not enough in my hour journey home to effect my mpg. However, last night, I reset my mileage meter before turning off the highway into town and drove around for 30 minutes. This included lots of stopping and waiting at lights etc and climbing inclines. After the 30 minutes, my overhead reported 20.1 mpg compared to the EPA estimate for city driving of 14 for my truck.

Both of these facts point to the hypothesis that HHO is working on my truck, however, only providing decent benefits at low engine RPM's. This tells me that I should try and increase my production and monitor the results. My new supply of KOH should be arriving this week, hopefully, that along with whatever else I can think of will allow me to bring up my production again.

Comments and suggestions, as always, very welcome.

[Painless]

Against my better judgement, although it can certainly be said that my mpg figures are static at the moment and will be for a week or so, I just installed the water injection system I built yesterday.

It's basically a coffee jar with a small aquarium airstone in it on the end of some thin tubing. There is a filtered air hole in the lid and the tubing from the stone goes to inside the resonator box in my truck, which is secured onto the throttle body.

So far this morning, I could not visibly see any water being taken in, even when I opened up the throttle, but it's also possible that it's too minute an amount.

Going to see what happens with this, if anything. If nothing happens than I'm going to construct a small venturi to aid in pulling the water in.

[Jaxom]

Restting the PCM's memory shouldn't negate any gains. In fact, I'd expect it to go the other way, such that you'd see the gains more clearly until the PCM learns to compensate for them. Either way, the fuel trim information will be 95% back to normal within the first 10-20 miles of driving, so that's not going to be your problem after 160 miles.

You have a good thought about the increased city mileage indicating too little HHO at higher speeds/loads. The problem is that if you up the HHO flow, you'll have enough on the highway, but more than you need at idle/in town. That may hurt you by causing trouble codes, if so you'll need to find a happy medium.

It's hard to say if O2 compensation is messing you up without being able to work with the vehicle. If you were here in T-town it wouldn't take half an hour to hook up a scantool and look over the fuel trims and such on a short test drive. Over the internet it's nearly impossible.

I doubt that the water injection will work when plumbed to the airbox before the throttlebody. There isn't enough vacuum present there to draw the water in. The venturi is a good idea though.....I've thought about using one to help draw HHO into the airstream. Also, isn't the airstone supposed to be on the air inlet into the canister, and the engine feed from the airspace at the top, similar to a bubbler? That way the air would bubble up through the water and pick up vapor on it's way...you don't want a steady stream of water being sucked into the engine through your hose.

[Painless]

You have a good thought about the increased city mileage indicating too little HHO at higher speeds/loads. The problem is that if you up the HHO flow, you'll have enough on the highway, but more than you need at idle/in town. That may hurt you by causing trouble codes, if so you'll need to find a happy medium.

That will be an easy choice, I live out in the country and 99% of my driving is 45-55mph so I have no problem with optimising heavily towards higher speed driving. One I do get my production up and see highway gains, I could probably put in a switch to cut off half of the cells when in town.

It's hard to say if O2 compensation is messing you up without being able to work with the vehicle. If you were here in T-town it wouldn't take half an hour to hook up a scantool and look over the fuel trims and such on a short test drive. Over the internet it's nearly impossible.

I'm very computer literate, I've worked in I.T. my whole life, is there anything affordable that you could recommend for analyzing such on my Ram?

I doubt that the water injection will work when plumbed to the airbox before the throttlebody. There isn't enough vacuum present there to draw the water in. The venturi is a good idea though.....I've thought about using one to help draw HHO into the airstream.

I definitely agree on the limited vacuum, it's just not present. I'm going to take a look through the service manual and see if there is a more suitable vacuum line I could use. If not, I'll work on the venturi.

Thanks for your input, Jaxom, very much appreciated.

[Smyler86]

Hello Painless

I'm new to this forum and you thread had taken my 1st post, and addicted me to hho!

Really like your work and reports!! Keep it up!

I got a OBDII Scanner from hong kong and its really good, maybe its what you need?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=220283205866

(this is the one i got so its ended!)

Hope this helps

Dan

[Painless]

Hello Painless

I'm new to this forum and you thread had taken my 1st post, and addicted me to hho!

Really like your work and reports!! Keep it up!

I got a OBDII Scanner from hong kong and its really good, maybe its what you need?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...m=220283205866

(this is the one i got so its ended!)

Hope this helps

Dan

Thanks Dan and welcome to the forum!!

I've been looking at the devices at scantool.net but they're just too pricey for me at the moment. Hopefully, I can find a good deal on a cable like you did. Would even solder up my own if I knew where to find the schematic and vehicle side connector.

Welcome to the wonderful fun world of HHO, where everyone wants to suffer from large amounts of gas!

[H2OPWR]

Painless, Have you tried just putting a 50k ohm pentiometer (about $2.00) between your MAP or MAF sensor and reducing the voltage to your ECM. I tried O2 extendors, then a voltage adder (pain in the ass). got very little difference. I then installed the above mentioned into the signal line between my MAP sensor and the ECM and doubled the mileage of my 98 Jeep Wrangler. My cell is producing 2lpm. Reducing the output by lowering the amps made my engine stumble and lost HP. I changed to a 40ohm and a 10 ohm pot. I turned the 10 ohm pot all the way to max. then I turned the 40k ohm until the engine was stumbling. I backed off the 10k untill the engine was smooth. This set up for $3.00 seems to work the best. Was 15.5 mph hwy now 29.8.