Painless experiment in HHO

[Jaxom]

I like RideLong's idea about using a small heater element inside the genny on a temp. feedback circuit to keep the electrolyte above freezing. It would be a bit hard to manage with a tero-style cell, but if you don't stagger the water equalization ports maybe it could run through them? That way it could heat all the cell gaps, and also heat the genny from the bottom up. You'd probably need a second element in the reservoir to keep it thawed, as well as one in the bubbler (or else fill the bubbler with an antifreeze mix, though the vapors may not be good.)

[Jaxom]

My mileage on the way to work was the same as ever, but I don't think the IAT or CTS mods will make a difference here as they only seem to set the stage to allow leaning past the normal limits. I believe I will need to go ahead with the MAP and O2 mods before I see any improvements.

You're right about that. As long as the O2s are monitoring the exhaust, the PCM will compensate for any changes you make in an effort to maintain 14.7:1 AFR.

[paulm39083]

[ Also, watching the O2 voltage won't tell you much about how the fuel system is actually working, unless it's running so rich or lean that the PCM exceeds it's compensation range. Once in closed loop, it just switches back and forth across 450mV unless something goes wrong.]

I have noticed that already so you are right it tells me not much ....... except it works.......... so ......... shouldn't it react to HHO with a lower
voltage on the millivolt meter.. and then shouldn't I be able to tell how much voltage needs to be added to fool the sensor... and wouldn't that be an indication that HHO is being used . at least enough for the sensor to respond with a demand for more gas ??????????????


later

[Painless]

[ Also, watching the O2 voltage won't tell you much about how the fuel system is actually working, unless it's running so rich or lean that the PCM exceeds it's compensation range. Once in closed loop, it just switches back and forth across 450mV unless something goes wrong.]

I have noticed that already so you are right it tells me not much ....... except it works.......... so ......... shouldn't it react to HHO with a lower
voltage on the millivolt meter.. and then shouldn't I be able to tell how much voltage needs to be added to fool the sensor... and wouldn't that be an indication that HHO is being used . at least enough for the sensor to respond with a demand for more gas ??????????????


later

I noticed when I had a multimeter hooked up to my right-bank O2 once that the signal was pretty hard to judge any useful info from for the naked eye. This is where a scantool and monitoring fuel trims would be best.

I've been using a circuit simulator / analyzer program to modify the poor-mans EFIE design so that it will work well with the 2.5-3.5v signal from the Dodge O2's. Looks like I have it cracked!

With a 3v voltage source, a 50k resistor and a 10k pot, you can achieve between 0 to 0.5 volts of signal modification.

[daddymikey1975]

I shall be doing that tomorrow. I also reset the ECU to clear the misfire codes I'd managed to generate when playing with vacuum.

Due to the "adaptive" nature of your trucks electronics, the CEL and codes will be cleared, but it may take a day or two of driving for your truck to adjust to any mods that you make, it needs to 'learn' again what's going on with itself (if that makes sense)

What was nice to see, now that I'm just HHO to the vacuum and it's all sealed is that I can close my ball valve, let HHO build up for 15 seconds or so, then open the valve full on again and hear the engine respond to the HHO burst. Gives me a nice reassurance that the HHO is actually doing something.

What i read up here, is that when you have a sufficient amount of HHO, you DEFINITELY get a response from your truck... I know your cell is very efficient based on your numbers, MMW and such, but I still wonder if you have enough HHO going into it for the truck to even care?? just an idea... and I will read through the tuning for mileage guide this weekend.. I just applied for classes so this week's been kinda hectic...

well, i typed into the 'quote' box because i don't know how to do different ones... lol...


mike

[Painless]

Ok, todays update:

Another busy morning before I head off to work this afternoon, placed a 6.8k resistor in parallel with my CTS and a 10k linear pot in series with my MAP signal line and placed the pot in the cab. Made some very small adjustments for now.

To summarise my electrical messings:

Doubled up O2 extenders (until I sort out EFIE)
10k resistor in parallel with the IAT
6.8k resistor in parallel with the CTS
10k linear potentiometer in series with the MAP signal output

Time will tell!

[Jaxom]

I have noticed that already so you are right it tells me not much ....... except it works.......... so ......... shouldn't it react to HHO with a lower
voltage on the millivolt meter.. and then shouldn't I be able to tell how much voltage needs to be added to fool the sensor... and wouldn't that be an indication that HHO is being used . at least enough for the sensor to respond with a demand for more gas ??????????????

The O2 will react to HHO by producing a lower-voltage (lean) signal. The problem is, the PCM then immediately compensates by increasing the injector pulse-width to get the O2 reading back in line. This happens so fast you can't even see it on a voltmeter. The fuel trim system will correct for the lean O2 reading in a fraction of a second.

When the vehicle is runing in open-loop, the PCM doesn't correct for the O2 reading. Then it IS possible to use the O2 as a (somewhat inaccurate) tuning tool, but most cars go into closed loop within a minute of initial startup so it's still not a reasonable proposition. You need a scantool so that you can watch the fuel trim feedback data and adjust the O2 signal to get the fuel trims near what they were when you started.

[Zymosan]

New here, just read this entire thread. Good stuff from all of you.

I just saw this in the new Popular Mechanics. It's a little pricey but has a TON of information about what your engine is doing.

Hit the "click here to learn more" under the Add-a-gauge on the first page, then the XGauge commands. It even has 02 sensor readings in there.

http://www.scangauge.com/

[Painless]

There's light at the end of the tunnel!!!

Firstly, before leaving for work today, I re-plumbed my HHO back to the throttle body. I wasn't happy with the way the truck was running with it connected to vacuum. The idle was most worrying, there was no visible instability in rpm but you could almost feel the truck shake. I may look at vacuum again in the future, but I don't feel that I want to continue with it for the moment.

Anyhow, on my way to work today, I achieved 21 mpg!!!!!! That's a 4 mpg improvement from my original 17 baseline.

Before leaving home, with the truck idling, I played with the 10k pot (MAP sensor) and slowly turned it to find the stumbling point for the engine. I then turned the pot all the way off again, took the engine up to 2000 rpm and slowly increased the pot whilst keeping the same accelerator pedal pressure and watched the tach. At a point, the rpm's started to drop slowly. I backed off to about 60% of this point.

On the way to work, running at 50+ mph, I played with the settings some more making minute adjustments, finally settling one something around 90% (rough guess) of the original rpm drop point. After 45 minutes, my computer threw a code:

P0171 - Lean condition detected on bank 1

I guessed at the code whilst driving and looked it up when I got to work, anyhow, at the point the CEL came on I backed off the MAP pot a little.

I did notice, on the last leg of my journey (which is through a 45 then 40 then 35mph zone with lots of stop lights) that the truck hesitated for the merest part of a second when either pulling away from stop or very low speeds. I adjusted the MAP back a little further. I'm guessing that this is where a dual city / highway MAP setup would be very useful.

Anyway, I'm pleased to finally be seeing some decent results. Now I can continue to work for more MPG.

[daddymikey1975]

There's light at the end of the tunnel!!!

Firstly, before leaving for work today, I re-plumbed my HHO back to the throttle body. I wasn't happy with the way the truck was running with it connected to vacuum. The idle was most worrying, there was no visible instability in rpm but you could almost feel the truck shake. I may look at vacuum again in the future, but I don't feel that I want to continue with it for the moment.

Anyhow, on my way to work today, I achieved 21 mpg!!!!!! That's a 4 mpg improvement from my original 17 baseline.

Before leaving home, with the truck idling, I played with the 10k pot (MAP sensor) and slowly turned it to find the stumbling point for the engine. I then turned the pot all the way off again, took the engine up to 2000 rpm and slowly increased the pot whilst keeping the same accelerator pedal pressure and watched the tach. At a point, the rpm's started to drop slowly. I backed off to about 60% of this point.

On the way to work, running at 50+ mph, I played with the settings some more making minute adjustments, finally settling one something around 90% (rough guess) of the original rpm drop point. After 45 minutes, my computer threw a code:

P0171 - Lean condition detected on bank 1

I guessed at the code whilst driving and looked it up when I got to work, anyhow, at the point the CEL came on I backed off the MAP pot a little.

I did notice, on the last leg of my journey (which is through a 45 then 40 then 35mph zone with lots of stop lights) that the truck hesitated for the merest part of a second when either pulling away from stop or very low speeds. I adjusted the MAP back a little further. I'm guessing that this is where a dual city / highway MAP setup would be very useful.

Anyway, I'm pleased to finally be seeing some decent results. Now I can continue to work for more MPG.

EXCELLENT RESULTS.... you've finally been able to make the truck run lean... BUT the darn computer noticed it (stupid thing lol) and corrected by throwing CEL and dumping gas to correct... not bad though because you KNOW you can lean it out now to compensate for the HHO.. now you just need to sort out the EFIE... so that when you make it lean, it won't know (it needs blinders)

i think the solution is overcoming the bias voltage on the O2 sensors.. i DID notice in your service manual in the section I was reading before, 25-4 i think.. emission controls, it talks about the o2 sensors and it specifically mentions the 1 volt threshold or something like that... would be worth reading again now that you've found the tree in the forest... could help with your voltage adder.

mike