Painless experiment in HHO

[Painless]

Hi Painless,
I have read all 50 pages of this post. I am a certified master mechanic with over 40 years on the job. I'm new to HHO Just built a 25 plate dry cell with 6x6 plates. On your work with your EFIE if your ECU supply's 2,5 volts to your EGO don't you need to add more than 2.5 volts with EFIE like 3.0 or 2.9? In my thinking about this with with EGO's that put out 0 to 1 volt you add say .450 volts so that would mean you need over the 2.5 volts to fool your ECU. I don't have much experience with Dodge so I don't know for sure but that just seems right to me. Maybe you could add more battery's to your system and try this. And just to let you know I have enjoyed reading all of your posts keep up the good work. We all need more people like you working to help our world be a better place. I have stated doing my part and hope to be able to help others after i learn more my self.

Thank You,
crewdog

Thanks for the kind comments.

What I'm actually doing is replacing the 2.5v bias voltage that my Dodge's ECU supplies to the O2's. Right now, well before my cell failed, I was running the bias at 2.65v. Effectively, adding 150mv to my O2's signal.

[crewdog]

Thanks for the kind comments.

What I'm actually doing is replacing the 2.5v bias voltage that my Dodge's ECU supplies to the O2's. Right now, well before my cell failed, I was running the bias at 2.65v. Effectively, adding 150mv to my O2's signal.

Sorry I don't remember seeing that in your posts. I just thought that was what was fighting you with the EGO's. I have seen where the post cat O2's do have some control of fuel. I hope you find what works good luck.

crewdog

[crewdog]

Just one more thought if the O2's work from 2.5 to 3.5 volts. Over 3.0 volts would be rich under 3.0 would be lean. So would you not need over this to help? Like 2.95. Just another thought! 2.65 just seems to low to help?

crewdog

[Painless]

Just one more thought if the O2's work from 2.5 to 3.5 volts. Over 3.0 volts would be rich under 3.0 would be lean. So would you not need over this to help? Just another thought!

crewdog

I will need to raise the voltage over time, but raising it has been causing my issues so far. I was working on the slowly slowly approach for the moment, just adding voltage little by little. The Dodge ECU seems to be very, very sensitive to fuel trim adjustments.

[crewdog]

I will need to raise the voltage over time, but raising it has been causing my issues so far. I was working on the slowly slowly approach for the moment, just adding voltage little by little. The Dodge ECU seems to be very, very sensitive to fuel trim adjustments.

Well I was just working off O2's that work with 0 to 1 volt. When I have monitored working O2's they were switching from .4 to .8 volts most of the time. So my thoughts would be to raise the lower volts to .45 to .50 then fool the ECU into thinking it was not going as lean as it was looking for and lean out the fuel mix just by a small amount. I am not convinced that O2 extenders work. Knowing how O2's work and how the ECU interprets the signal I just don't see how extenders can help. Again just my thoughts.

crewdog

[daddymikey1975]

Crewdog, Welcome to the HHO community.

The idea behind the extenders is that by reducing the exposure of the O2 sensor to the exhaust stream the sensor will sample less and therefore return more of a rich signal because it doesn't 'see' as much oxygen. I'm not sure if i buy into the idea yet or not... there are people getting good results and there are others (such as Russ) that did not achieve results.. I think mostly it's vehicle dependent.

I hope this helps.
Mike

[Painless]

I was fortunate enough to be able to have a one-on-one conversation with Rob from h21o.com last night, for those of you that aren't familiar with Rob he can be found on youtube as higherpoweredh2o. Rob is a veteran of building and tuning performance engines and operates a business as an HHO installer / maintenance also. He's a very knowledgable guy with vehicle ECU's and has a wide experience of HHO installation on different vehicles.

The guys over at h21o.com take it in turns to run nightly ustream.tv shows each night, I highly recommend catching Rob's if you get the chance. The times are in their forums. I spoke with Rob for about half an hour last night about my Ram and learnt a lot.

Firstly, the problem with my downstream O2's signalling lean is something Rob was familiar with. It's not so much that they are seeing more oxygen but that the HHO and the leaner burn caused by EFIE'ing the upstream O2's is putting the catalytic converter out of business. This is causing the downstream O2's to not even fluctuate which is causing the codes. Rob's suggestion was actually to build two O2 simulators and wire them in place of the rear O2 sensors.

Rob also mentioned that my 2.33 LPM of dry HHO (I condense out the water vapor to keep the KOH / NaOH out of my engine) is not enough for my size of motor. With dry HHO, he quoted that I needed a figure more in line of 5-6 LPM. If I were running wet HHO then my 2.33 LPM would be enough to see some gains. We discussed the implementation of water injection to make up for the loss of water vapor, this is something I think I will be doing.

We also spoke about EFIE's and other ECU mods, Rob doesn't really like these things but knows that they are a necessary evil right now. He is working on a product that will be a piggy back system for ECU's that will allow us to adapt the computer to accept HHO rather than fooling it. He speculates that he will be selling this product for somewhere in the $200 range to make it affordable, compared to the tuners out there that you can buy. I am very interested to see this once Rob has it in full time testing.

So, I have some direction for now. I need to rebuild my cell this weekend. I'm going to split the 25 plates into two seperate stacks of 13 plates. This should lessen the strain of compression on the whole setup.

I've also been fortunate to receive a very generous donation towards my work from somebody who will remain nameless at their request. In short, I received an EGT gauge and 50 amp PWM in the mail yesterday and today. A Scangauge II is also on it's way to me. These tools are going to be invaluable in my research and I would like to thank the donater very much from the bottom of my heart.

Russ.

[H2OPWR]

I am not sure what the shower pan liner that you are using costs. By the look at the picture of your cell it looks like a direct short between your plates caused overheating and melted the shower pan liner gasket. I just picked up some 1/16" neoprene sheeting from a local rubber company. 5 square feet was just over $8.00. I was blown away by how inexpensive it was. I am sure it is less than that in the lower 48. Everything is way higher here priced especially specialty items due to lack of competition and shipping costs. It is a great insulator, very easy to cut, and the right thickness.

[Painless]

Without taking the cell apart again, I'm in agreement about the short it's been a big problem with this design as I progressed to more plates. I'm going to rebuild it to two stacks of 13 plates over this weekend.

I have a huge roll of the shower pan liner, probably enough to do my bath as well I think I'm also going to remove the angled edges from the plates as they are the shorting issue, more than anything else.

[alpha-dog]

You can get O-ring material on a roll 10, 20, 50 or 100 feet in various diameters and in neopreme. All you need to do then is glue the ends. I think loctite 404 works real well. 50 foot roll only cost about $3.50.
Russ