Member
Oh I am no scientist and I meen no disrespect to anyone. Im just here to learn so I get annoyed when I read negative posts like that.Originally Posted by RustyLugNut
two wrongs dont make it right so I apologize..
great, everyone is happy again moving on.
Senior Member
This is a test anyone of you can do...............
First:
Use your cell to fill a one pint plastic bottle; insert into a 4 inch pvc pipe 8 foot long that's sealed; threaded on one end with a wire through the cap as a detonator; a compression tester on the other end of the pipe; DETONATE.
Next:
Use the same cell and your version of a Ruskin or magnetic field; same type of bottle; same pipe; same experiment; DETONATE.
Repeat as often as you like and you will see the difference..........................every time!
I have, if that is scientific enough to start?
If it doesn't work I have no need to use it nor pass it to others myself.
Its done right or its not done !
Hail HHO.
Senior Member
-Directly.I have done research. I am not questioning the validity of the Ruskin Patent. But how does it translate to your application?-Energy is present in the magnetic fieldsThat is the question I seek. Energy is needed.-It is apparently sufficient since the gas density is orders of magnitude lower and temperature higher, and if speed through the fields truly is a necessary factor for room temperature conversion of gaseous H then this is easily accomplished by restricting the diameter of the converter's outer tube body to a fractional proportion of the original formula. This new ratio would have to be determined case by case, dependent upon a particular reactors output. There is certain research data that I have access to that I am unfortunately restricted from sharing in this or any forum that allows me to assert the above with confidence- apologies to all concerned..The Ruskin Filter is employed in missile boosters with turbo pumps that rate in the thousands of horsepower in some applications. The Ruskin Filter employs the velocity imparted to the liquid para hydrogen to start the interconversion to ortho hydrogen in the staggered magnetic fields. Is there enough energy in your gas stream to make the collisions energetic enough to start the interconversion?
And, as an aside . . . the granting of a utility patent does NOT guarantee the device has been prototyped and tested. The USPO challenges only a relative handful of patents every year for proof. "Patent Law", byJ. Meuller, is oft cited in undergrad classes as a definitive text. I have an early edition on my shelf. She makes it very clear that most patents are not challenged. But the threat thereof makes outlandish devices unlikely to be applied for.
"The para-hydrogen, as it flows, cuts the generally radial and perpendicular magnetic fields of the magnets and is converted to the ortho state. There is no dispute that magnetic fields will effect the conversion from para- to ortho-hydrogen, both appellant and the Patent Office acknowledging that the phenomenon was known. The Patent Office is apparently satisfied that the appellant's device is operable."
I simply asked if you had any way of knowing interconversion is actually going on within your Ruskin Filter. This is a poor parallel as argument. -Really? I think it is wonderfully analogous, and you just stated your opinion as fact. We can, and have observed the sun. Do we know the Ruskin works in this application? I have seen no indication it does. -Then apparently you have not built or tested one as I and others here have.. But then we are not proper SCIENTISTS so our results are only anecdotal, right? Therefore apparently disregarded and poo-poo'ed by the anointed..
There is significant energy gained in interconversion from para to ortho hydrogen. But the amount of energy you could gain is very small seeing as you can only pass micro grams per second of HHO through your filter. Since "normal" room temp hydrogen already contains 75% ortho, the energy gained is exceedingly small by converting the other 25%. -Does not every bit help? One does not step over a penny to pick up a pound, if possible you grab them both.
Actually, this is precisely how the Ruskin Filter works. It is just another method via electromagnets vs permanent magnets. And I had it backwards. It makes ortho hydrogen. Catalysts are usually used to inter convert from ortho to para as well as additional refrigeration energy to absorb the heat released. [/QUOTE] -As I found references to conversions both directions using magnetic fields (and specific metals for ortho to para) one can only surmise that field strength, shape of field, type of field and some other variables all act to determine specific action. I am satisfied with it as far as I have pursued it, and in any case do not intend to respond to any more devil's advocation on your part. Good day sir.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Senior Member
Many of your posts are highly questionable. This one borders on mad! I highly doubt you have performed this so called experiment. Someone is going to try this and get hurt!
This is HIGHLY DANGEROUS! I have ignited 1 liter plastic bottles filled with HHO. It is like firing a shotgun. And you propose to encase it in a PVC pipe? I have seen HHO cannons, made from PVC, shatter from firing.
HHO is a stoichiometric mix of oxygen & hydrogen. In an enclosed space, the combustion flame front can be left far behind by the detonation front which can exceed the speed of sound.
Explain yourself more fully with drawings, descriptions and purpose.
Senior Member
So, your HHO generators are pumping liquid hydrogen at high mass rates and high velocities? Now I'm being facetious. You feel the Ruskin Patent is directly related, and I feel it is less so. We will leave it at that.
Yet, hydrogen left in a static magnetic field inter converts at a slow rate. Energetic Collisions are needed to change the spin.
The bottom line is . . . have you measured the output of your filters to see if the percentage of ortho hydrogen has increased? There are ways to do so. However costly. So I don't really expect you to answer yes.-It is apparently sufficient since the gas density is orders of magnitude lower and temperature higher, and if speed through the fields truly is a necessary factor for room temperature conversion of gaseous H then this is easily accomplished by restricting the diameter of the converter's outer tube body to a fractional proportion of the original formula. This new ratio would have to be determined case by case, dependent upon a particular reactors output. There is certain research data that I have access to that I am unfortunately restricted from sharing in this or any forum that allows me to assert the above with confidence- apologies to all concerned..
Again, no proof of concept prototype to prove operation. Do you have evidence outside of the patent pages that the device was built and tested? Lay people have this unfounded belief that the granting of a patent proves absolutely the device functions. You prove your utility via the abstract, drawings, claims, etc. That is it. I brought this up as a counterpoint to your insistence that the granted patent proves the Ruskin Filter works. I am not saying the Ruskin Filter does not work, only that the granting of the patent does not ensure that it works.
Have you really "Tested" your units effectiveness? What is the % of ortho hydrogen at the output? Simple question. Any other data would be appreciated.
If you think all this effort is worth it, then go ahead. As the gap between the spin energies of ortho and para hydrogen narrow as temperature increases, by the time we get to 273K and above there is very little energy to be gained by the Ruskin Filter derived device you have built. If you are indeed seeing a considerable gain in efficiency, it is certainly not because of spin energy differences. You will have to look elsewhere for the reason.
This topic needed a devils advocate. Many topics on this forum need one. There is too much agreement to detriment. BioFarmer, you make it clear in your profile and in this thread and others that you have an adverse reaction to overbearing educated types. That is unfortunate. But the exercise of real discourse sharpens our concept and learning.
Someone asked for a definitive answer on can, and how, this Filter works. In summary, I believe it can increase the ortho percentage of "normal" hydrogen. Even in the application BioFarmer and others are using it in. However, the benefits are ambiguous. The added energy of increased ortho hydrogen is exceedingly small. If there are any significant real world gains, it will be for some other phenomenon we have overlooked.
Yes this is only my opinion. But I think it has good basis. Hopefully the reader has gained enough information to form their own opinion on the subject.
Senior Member
Good job RustyI too have been searching for a better reason to use a Ruskin filter and have had a hard time finding eveidence that its beneficial enough to make one. Its like asking "how does this work" and hearing "it does".
I wish someone could tell me how long it takes for para to turn back into ortho in say the average temp inside and engine compartment?
Member
Here's a quote from an article that myoldyourgold posted on the R.Y.F.B. site, titled Ortho hydrogen conversion.pdf.
http://reduceyourfuelbill.com.au/for...hp?topic=444.0
"Hydrogen coexists in two different forms, ortho and para hydrogen, whose partition is dependent on the temperature. Normal hydrogen at room temperature is 75 % ortho (nuclear spins aligned) and 25 % para (spins anti-aligned).
In the lower temperature range < 80 K, para hydrogen is the more stable form. At 20 K, the thermal equilibrium concentrations are 99.821 % para and 0.179 % ortho. The transition takes place over a longer period (about 3 - 4 days), until a new equilibrium state is reached.
However, magnetic impurities and also small oxygen concentrations are able to catalyze ortho-para conversions raising the rate by several orders of magnitude (very good: Fe(OH)3) to the order of hours.
Any concentration of either spin state can be created at any temperature through the action of catalysts.
Most physical properties are differing only slightly between the two spin states.
Most important is the large energy difference between the two varieties, which results in major differences for the specific heats and thermal conductivities.
The presence of a radiation field results in the generation of free hydrogen atoms and ions, which also act as catalysts before recombining. The recombination on the other hand produces excess ortho hydrogen."
Other stuff I've read states that temperature alone can't raise the ortho / parra ratio above 75% / 25%, which is attained at "room temperature" (paragraph one), so engine bay temps are more than good enough.
Time for the conversion seems to be conditional on several things, see paragraphs two and three.
The biggest issue I see for HHO is in the third paragraph above. The issue of oxygen acting as a catalyst to convert ortho to parra.
Rusty, please note the fourth paragraph.
The fifth paragraph seems to support the theory that the Ruskin converter is based on.
I didn't write this article, I'm not a physicist, so I can't prove any of it, but I see no reason not to accept it .... until something better comes along.
Senior Member
I gave this some thought before I closed the office for the weekend.Good job Rusty
I wish someone could tell me how long it takes for para to turn back into ortho in say the average temp inside and engine compartment?
The energetic ortho hydrogen lingers around long enough at STP (standard temperature and pressure) to certainly make it into the combustion chamber.
Remember that at STP, 75% of the H2 is ortho and this is it's equilibrium percentage. With the a high speed stream of HHO passing through a modified Ruskin Filter, that ortho percentage may certainly increase. But then . . .
Simply said, it doesn't matter. In the presence of oxygen, under the heat and turbulence of compression, most H2 has broken up to form short lived species such as H+, OH-, HOOH, and so forth. Simple, very reactive combustion intermediaries that form when the flame front is formed. These species help in the thermal de-polymerization of the relatively long chain fuels. Like high speed bullets, they help cut apart and disassemble the carbon chains. A simplification of classical theory, but workable for our needs.
What I am surmising is that, our addition of H2 before the combustion flame is even started, results in the formation of some of these reactive sub species. Even during the compression stroke in a spark ignited engine, I think the small addition of H2 results in some of that H2, if not all, forming up with oxygen to get our reactive subspecies going during the compression stroke. The "de-polymerization" of our fuel carbon chains may already be going on during compression freeing up even more hydrogen to join the process in a domino effect, effectively conditioning the fuel before combustion. The above is, again, a simplification, but it should give you an understanding of how HHO may affect our spark ignited engines. The substantial gains some members of this forum are reporting even with relatively small influx of HHO may be due to the above happening. A "perfect storm of variables" may be allowing them to hit the domino effect early in the compression stroke providing a substantially pre-conditioned fuel mixture at the initiation of the spark event.
This could be where the Ruskin Filter comes into use. Maybe, just maybe . . . the increased ortho hydrogen content coming out of the filter may allow our engines to see a greater number of reactive species forming from the ortho hydrogen much earlier than with just the "normal" hydrogen ratio of ortho/para. Ortho hydrogen is considered more reactive than para, so it may be that just a small percentage increase over the normal 75% ortho may be all that is needed to tip the scales and really get the domino effect going.The SI engine could be seeing a greatly pre-conditioned fuel mix because of it.
It may be . . .
That is the problem. I don't really know for sure until I can test. My shop is only a few miles away from one of the best equipped University of California schools able to probe these questions. And I will not have access to it's facilities until/unless the grant requests come through.
But we as outside experimenters can continue to work through our own research. But it behooves us to be a bit more scientific about it.
For every positive report on the use of HHO, there may be a dozen failed attempts. Simply because there is a lack of depth of understanding. Without this understanding, it is a hit and miss proposition when applying HHO technology.
We may not have the lab equipment to directly or closely measure our experiments. But we can think of indirect means that can give us clues.
One example of a measurable and repeatable experiment is one that convinced me that HHO works. We had two '85 vehicles in our test stable. One, a Dodge 2.2l gas engine 4 door sedan equipped with a manual 5 speed transmission. The other was a Mercedes 2.2l NA diesel similarly configured. Our electrolysis cell configuration comprised 3 Faraday cells in electrical series. With true Faraday cells, all that matters is the amperage you put into each cell and you can calculate exactly how much H2 is evolved. It was built for a different purpose but worked well in this application. A current limiting controller was used. Amperes could be adjusted from 4 amps to 20.
Our dynomometer was a simple stretch of road leading up to the airport. Straight with little traffic and a gradual rise of exactly 10 feet in a quarter mile. Why was this chosen? Because, surprisingly, both vehicles could be placed in 1st gear and could idle up the rise! By measuring the time it took to traverse the quarter mile, we could see relative gains/losses in any changes we made.
The Little Dodge was happy with 7 amps through the cells. Anymore and the idle suffered as the draw on the alternator was too much or the combustion timing became too advanced. The Black Hawk engine analyzer showed the engine gained 50 rpm when the 7 amp cells kicked in. Out on "dyno Hill", the baseline "runs" idling up the hill were consistent within 2 seconds. With the cells operating, a consistent 15 seconds were cut off the baseline time! One could do it all day with little variation from run to run.
The Little Mercedes could take all 20 amps and showed no change in idle at all. But out on the "dyno", it consistently cut several seconds off its baseline time. The Mercedes times were more consistent with less than a second variation. Turn off the electrolysis cells, it slowed down to the baseline. Turn it on, and it gained the several seconds back. What was even more surprising, was with HHO, the Diesel could idle up the hill in 2nd gear! Without it, it could not!
Other vehicles that were capable of idling up the hill were tested, but they showed no gains and some even showed losses! This told us this was not a simple exercise of just sticking an electrolysis generator on any vehicle.
The Little Dodge has gone to the scrap yard to be replaced with a 2007 2.4l Dodge, while the Little Mercedes is still in use as a daily driver with just under 550,000 miles on the odometer, which broke 11 yrs ago.
The above is just an example of attempting to quantify our experiments versus just giving quality reports. This makes the tests more valuable. Our shop has other, more advanced testing apparatus, but anyone can set up something similar. With some ingenuity, anything is possible.
If someone with a Ruskin Filter could run a similar experiment, it would be invaluable.
Senior Member
Could you be more specific about the "fourth paragraph". The 4th paragraph hits me as being a discussion about hydrogen diffusivity.
Use, sections and paragraphs. This is assuming I have the correct Pdf file.
By the way, I was already familiar with the page and most of it's documents, but thank you for bringing it up for perusal.
Senior Member
I just realized you were referring to the paragraphs in your post.
The large energy difference is at low temperatures. At 50K (Kelvin) the molar energies are significant. At 273K ( 0 degrees centigrade) the energies have far less difference.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2_energies.jpg
This chart from Wikipedia shows the molar energies starting to merge as temperature increases.
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