2 Ideas which could add to your yields...

[hhofox]

Hi all. These may have been around a while, but I have never seen them posted before. Please take a look at the two short articles posted below and let me know what you think about these simple ways to increase mileage.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article...ne_and_Ethanol

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Ice_Gives_More_MPG

> A third question is this: What about using Hydrogen Peroxide to gain MPG? I was thinking of bubbling it, or using it as an additive -what do you think?

> There are a few ways in which we could introduce cool/cold air into our intake, I want it to be cost effective as well. Please let me know what your ideas are. A/C gas is one, and the use of fans is another more permanent solution which I have come up with. A temporary test could be done with dry ice to see if it's worth it or not.

> Concerning the Acetone, I wonder if it would still work with e10 for those who have the ECU dumping gas because of the presence of extra O from HHO? Would it negate the ECU's response and give us the gains we want? If not, is there another additive which could be used instead, which works with e10 and has the same effect?

Let's get those thinking caps on and see!
What do you say?

[RustyLugNut]

Hi all. These may have been around a while, but I have never seen them posted before. Please take a look at the two short articles posted below and let me know what you think about these simple ways to increase mileage.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article...ne_and_Ethanol

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Ice_Gives_More_MPG

> A third question is this: What about using Hydrogen Peroxide to gain MPG? I was thinking of bubbling it, or using it as an additive -what do you think?

> There are a few ways in which we could introduce cool/cold air into our intake, I want it to be cost effective as well. Please let me know what your ideas are. A/C gas is one, and the use of fans is another more permanent solution which I have come up with. A temporary test could be done with dry ice to see if it's worth it or not.

> Concerning the Acetone, I wonder if it would still work with e10 for those who have the ECU dumping gas because of the presence of extra O from HHO? Would it negate the ECU's response and give us the gains we want? If not, is there another additive which could be used instead, which works with e10 and has the same effect?

Let's get those thinking caps on and see!
What do you say?

I am familiar with both the web site and those articles. They contain some good information mixed in with some bad. The writer also has some off base explanations.

There is much he doesn't tell you about his testing procedures. Is he using hyper-miling driving techniques? Is there wind? Is it downhill? How does he test the fuel used?

One of the biggest FAILS in mileage testing is dispensing the last gallon of fuel. It can vary by several tenths of a gallon depending on the pump, vehicle tilt, temperature, and the fuel itself. The unknowing tester often drives only a half hour and refills, topping off. He gets .5 gallons and thinks he's done much better than the last time he filled up when he got .8 gallons. Poor testing procedures gives you bad data that can give you highly inconsistent results. Since most of us do not have scientific testing Labs, we tend to think we can't be scientific about our testing. But, we can. Use a circular testing loop, that has predictable traffic. You start at the same fuel pump, and end there, using the same pump and orienting your vehicle the same way. You use up at least half your fuel so as to minimize the last gallon's effect. This can then give you more consistent results.

Or you could do like I do - have a removable fuel tank so that you can weigh your fuel before and after, removing all variability of measurement down to the resolution of my digital scientific scale.

I have used acetone for decades as a cheap octane booster and fuel cleaner. Hot Rod and Car & Craft magazine ran articles on it back in the 70's. There is nothing outrageously new in the use of it. It does increase the vapor rate of gasoline a measurable amount, so it may help vehicles with poor injection atomization or poor carb signals.

Cold air certainly helps horsepower. It only makes sense. Colder air is more dense containing more oxygen so you can add more fuel per power stroke. At drag races and time trials, we ice the intake manifold before each run to net us a consistent gain in horsepower. But the gain is only noticed because we are at full throttle and our times are measured in thousands of a second. In daily part throttle driving, HOT air nets you more efficiency! I would need several pages to explain, but it has good scientific basis.

And as far as hydrogen peroxide? It is an oxidizer. Highly corrosive. Even in the cheap (low percentage) over the counter drug store form, it costs about a dollar US per liter. HHO is an oxidizer. And a US dollar will buy me a gallon of distilled water. If you want instant performance, then I'd go nitrous oxide.

And back to the Peswiki article. The writer did all this testing and postulating, only to find out his O2 sensor was probably non functioning! Wow!

[hhofox]

Thanks for the quick reply! It is necessary to develop proper MPG testing procedures. I DO use the same station, same pump, same fuel, same direction, same person, same card, same clothes, same day, same... all the time. I almost always get past half tank, but traffic and conditions vary for the week's worth of driving that I do. The test is not perfect, but it works out when I look at the figures in my Excel workbook.

1) Concerning the Acetone, how much did/do you use? Do you use e10? Do you use Acetone + e10? Does it improve/worsen your fuel economy regardless of gasoline type? Is there anything else that you would recommend which has the same effect?

2) Well, I can EASILY try hot air, so please help me out with the COLD air tests for now. I was thinking of something like refrigerant instead of Nitro. Can you think of anything else along that line? I think that the fans might be a good place to start though.

3) Hydrogen Peroxide may be a no-no, but how about bubbling some Acetone? I wanna try some other liquids. Any ideas would be welcome.

It is true that his O2 sensor was busted, but it gave light to another point of view didn't it? Also, I didn't proceed to question how the MPG readings were acquired because he got almost the same stock readings that the manufacturers did using his MPG test. Something had to be done right, I presume.
Hey, maybe he got better mileage because he improved his exhaust...no, wait, his mileage tanked after the change to e10, so I guess it had to be the Acetone/Ice....

Anyway, please keep those ideas coming! You too RUSTY! After all, you've gotta be rusty for a reason.

[RustyLugNut]

Thanks for the quick reply! It is necessary to develop proper MPG testing procedures. I DO use the same station, same pump, same fuel, same direction, same person, same card, same clothes, same day, same... all the time. I almost always get past half tank, but traffic and conditions vary for the week's worth of driving that I do. The test is not perfect, but it works out when I look at the figures in my Excel workbook.

Your test procedure is quite good. Other than the traffic, you will show better correlation test to test compared to those that drive only a fraction of the distance and plop in less than a gallon. I have been to mileage contests and seen this exact thing. People will do the circuit and go to the pump and the last bit goes in and they think it's done. Then the judge puts the cap back on, and joggles the car, and . . . oh! Another half gallon can fit! Since you use half a tank or more, your error in that last gallon is minimized. So, I would trust your calculations more than some guy who drives his metro for half an hour and tells me he's getting 75 mpg after putting in only a few tenths of a gallon, not realizing he has a bubble in the corner of his gas tank that won't allow another few tenths.

1) Concerning the Acetone, how much did/do you use? Do you use e10? Do you use Acetone + e10? Does it improve/worsen your fuel economy regardless of gasoline type? Is there anything else that you would recommend which has the same effect?

I followed the Hot Rod article and used between 1 to 3 ounces per gallon as this gave a roughly 1:1 improvement in octane points ( 1 ounce=1 point, 3 oz=3 pts). After that, there was little gain to be had to add more acetone. Yes, I use it with E10. It helps octane, so I can add a bit more static timing ( this is on our old Daihatsu). It does help vaporization in winter months as mileage does improve over straight unleaded by about 10%. Our winters in San Diego are mild, so, don't read much into that. On our newer vehicles, I heat the gasoline to 80C. That provides much better vaporization than the acetone, though it is problematical if you have a re-circulatory fuel injection system. Our 2007 Dodge has an electronically controlled fuel pump, so the hot fuel stays in the rails.

2) Well, I can EASILY try hot air, so please help me out with the COLD air tests for now. I was thinking of something like refrigerant instead of Nitro. Can you think of anything else along that line? I think that the fans might be a good place to start though.

If you look at a chart for air density versus temperature, you will see that air only gains about 15% more density going from 100 deg F, to 30 deg F (below freezing). That means 15% more oxygen to burn and the consequential gain in power. But that would not translate into the 100% gain he was claiming.

By increasing the intake temperature of your engine, your volume of air expands to the point that your throttle position must open up reducing pumping losses ( as much as 15%). Also, your fuel vaporization is improved adding to your power and efficiency and reducing most of your hydrocarbon emissions. And, hot air is easily available in the engine compartment compared to trying to create cold air. Remember, it takes energy to get the freezing cold air.

3) Hydrogen Peroxide may be a no-no, but how about bubbling some Acetone? I wanna try some other liquids. Any ideas would be welcome.

Pure acetone would vaporize too quickly, so I would mix it with your gasoline. You will find that the container with the gasoline will get to the point only the heavy components are left and they will not vaporize easily. By adding acetone, you may be able to use more of these components. In any case, you can use the gasoline to buffer the vapor rate of the acetone. Try 10% acetone to gasoline and work your way upward in your bubbler ratio.

It is true that his O2 sensor was busted, but it gave light to another point of view didn't it? Also, I didn't proceed to question how the MPG readings were acquired because he got almost the same stock readings that the manufacturers did using his MPG test. Something had to be done right, I presume.
Hey, maybe he got better mileage because he improved his exhaust...no, wait, his mileage tanked after the change to e10, so I guess it had to be the Acetone/Ice....

Anyway, please keep those ideas coming! You too RUSTY! After all, you've gotta be rusty for a reason.

Just because he got one data point right doesn't mean he got the rest correct. I highly doubt his claims. He doesn't give us enough to accurately reproduce them. But, some of the principles he was trying to use are solid.

[myoldyourgold]

When it comes to additives to the fuel or anything else cost needs to be taken into consideration. Unless your goal is just to clean up the exhaust then cost has a major role to play in any of this. Acetone at say Home Depot's price of $16.96 US plus tax needs to be considered. Adding 3 oz per gallon (US) and you only get a 10% gain, you might find it not worth it especially if your vehicle only got 10 MPG to begin with. What does it really cost per mile gained or per gallon saved? Percents can really be misleading. The same applies to HHO. I do not see where small gains are really worth more than a cleaner exhaust. Cleaning up all the exhausts in the world will help but nothing compared to stopping a couple of large volcanoes from erupting. I guess we do what we can but some times it just makes no sense.

[RustyLugNut]

When it comes to additives to the fuel or anything else cost needs to be taken into consideration. Unless your goal is just to clean up the exhaust then cost has a major role to play in any of this. Acetone at say Home Depot's price of $16.96 US plus tax needs to be considered. Adding 3 oz per gallon (US) and you only get a 10% gain, you might find it not worth it especially if your vehicle only got 10 MPG to begin with. What does it really cost per mile gained or per gallon saved? Percents can really be misleading. The same applies to HHO. I do not see where small gains are really worth more than a cleaner exhaust. Cleaning up all the exhausts in the world will help but nothing compared to stopping a couple of large volcanoes from erupting. I guess we do what we can but some times it just makes no sense.

What you are saying is absolutely true. Using your numbers, my 10,000 lb Dodge panel van, which get's 10 mpg towing using the less evaporative winter gasoline might only save 4 gallons per tankful or about 15.60 USD local. And this is after you have spent 15.90 USD in acetone additive. When you look at the cost of implementing a mildly effective HHO unit, one has to look at the payback rate.

But all the above is true only for the economics of it. If you are the customer of some of the HHO or fuel additive marketeers, it is very important to know what your returns will be for all your outlay. For many on this forum, mileage is seen as a hobby of sorts. So, cost is rarely taken into account.

Cleaning up the air? Don't get me started.

Let me say this much. Clean exhaust is important to people who live in the Los Angeles Basin, in the Denver Basin, in the Torino Basin, in the Bejing Basin and so on. Places where millions of people reside in a geological bowl of sorts , which concentrates the pollution to toxic levels in only one day. Volcanoes and forest fires are the two largest natural air pollution disasters. But they are dwarfed by the increasingly larger human population and our industrial pollution.

Look at our children. Their developing bodies makes them highly sensitive to pollution well into their teens. And yet, we stick them on smokey diesel buses to transport them to and from school. What cost clean air?

[hhofox]

Thanks for the very insightful replies. I appreciate the level of detail you guys include. I'll re-read them later when I have more time.
I was wondering if anyone tried using the Acetone to negate the effects of the ECU? THe scenario I am imagining is this: An HHO user that connot get any gains on his MPG because he has to battle the ECU. If he goes ahead and adds Acetone to his tank, will it allow him to see the gains via allowing the extra gas to be burned instead of being wasted?
I'd like someone to try that and see what happens. They would not have much to lose if they are not seeing any gains thus far right?

[myoldyourgold]

In a well tuned current model vehicle there is very little wasted fuel. The amount of fuel going out the exhaust is very small. Not as most think. Less than 3% in most cases if it is running right.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=7211

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...7Lz0FQ&cad=rja

With a fuel additive you are just adding one more variable to an already complex tuning situation. I would suggest keeping it as simple as possible. With no electronics I would follow the following:

No HHO when not needed (idle, going down hill, foot off the accelerator)
The right amount of HHO for your average driving that does not upset the computer. (cruising less, in town through the gears a little more) There will be a trade off here and must be set right or you will not see any gains.

This should give you a small gain in most if not all properly tuned vehicles and not upset the computer.

[Madsceintist]

Acetone .....................

We use it in SHO's on the track and street. On cars with or without major tuning improvements. On the road applications have no more than 5 % acetone to the total fuel amount! Track running absolutely no more than a 15 % acetone to fuel ratio!

AS well, it isn't ran continuously, IT WILL swell the seals in the pump, injectors, and lines if continuously used and sitting on rubber. It makes rubber turn to a gummy, slimy mess.

Mygold;
Whether a car that is getting good or bad mileage with HHO, acetone will increase mileage regardless, but the offset of cost does NO justice!

Rustylug;
Most of today's systems are electronic and since the mid 80's have been. Dodge has been using the none return injection for some time, but the system still has a regulator and recirculates the fuel in the tank directly from the pump. When the system runs low or out of fuel, the lines and rail are bled out through the injectors when they open on the standard pulse, basically no air returning to the tank and a much quicker bleed. With this system you can not control the fuel pressure without extensive altering, as it is in the pump assembly. The fuel pump and the ambient temperature is the only things that heat up the fuel until it reaches the engine compartment. The engine heats up the fuel rail and the fuel inside quickly absorbs that heat.