Help with EFIE and Fuel Trim

[RustyLugNut]

This is where I'm going to get hacked to pieces...............
I do not have a lpm figure for you or a guess! I had my cell running full time at idle and at all driving ranges. I would alter the voltage to the pump to find the sweet spot for what the HHO generator was putting out and went with that. The best I achieved with that set up was 129 mpg. It was a lot of work as it was very basic and in experimental stages.

Because we have no way to verify your claims since you are fearful to show anyone or post up any pictures or diagrams/drawings. Until you do, I call BS on your 129 mpg claim.

[Madsceintist]

Anyone attempting the same experiment will find this to be highly creditable so I give a shi* about you call! There are witness' to my work and I need not have YOUR approval. So lets move on from these childish attacks. If you need some help with something, then ask, don't be a dic*.

[Quebecker]

Well, just to say if you want really good mileage and aren't worried with the check engine light or have to bother with inspections, you could put everything back to stock, then leave the o2's unplugged(not recommended for legal reasons in the U.S.) and cut out fuel from the pump by limiting the voltage to the pump. Of coarse with the HHO!
If you produce enough HHO then I would also insert a reducer in the intake tube or filter housing. Such as to reduce by 1/4 to 1/3 your current diameter.

What does this do and Why ???

With no o2's, your computer will have a base setting for fuel usage and use the load and throttle to determine consumption. There for cutting back fuel manually from its source will reduce your fuel consumption! I have found in past running that 5. to 7.5 volts will run everything just fine even with a load. The HHO makes up for the needed missing power to perform and run. You can run more HHO due the fact the o2's can't pick up the oxygen content !!!!!
The reduction in the tube is so that the added oxygen from the HHO is not increased by the intake!!

Hi,

Corrected me if I'm wrong but the pump move the fuel from the tank to the injectors and the excess fuel back to the tank via the pressure regulator.

The pump's role is to create pressure. For its part, the role of the pressure regulator is to maintains a constant pressure.


Reduce the voltage may damage the pump ?

Reduce the voltage of the pump will not change the pressure in a fuel line, it's just that the pressure regulator that will open less often. Therefore, the pulse duration will be the same and the pressure being the same, the amount of fuel injected is the same

[RustyLugNut]

Anyone attempting the same experiment will find this to be highly creditable so I give a shi* about you call! There are witness' to my work and I need not have YOUR approval. So lets move on from these childish attacks. If you need some help with something, then ask, don't be a dic*.

These are questions of credibility. No one on these forums has seen your work. No one else has reproduced your work. Your witnesses only count in your circles.

Because your claim of 129 mpg is not credible - it casts doubt on ALL your posts.

[RustyLugNut]

Hi,

Corrected me if I'm wrong but the pump move the fuel from the tank to the injectors and the excess fuel back to the tank via the pressure regulator.

The pump's role is to create pressure. For its part, the role of the pressure regulator is to maintains a constant pressure.


Reduce the voltage may damage the pump ?

Reduce the voltage of the pump will not change the pressure in a fuel line, it's just that the pressure regulator that will open less often. Therefore, the pulse duration will be the same and the pressure being the same, the amount of fuel injected is the same

He is referring to modern non-return fuel injection systems found in many current autos and in many after market retrofit systems.

Some have a return regulator at the pump so the pump runs continuously while the pressure upstream is constant.

Others have no return at all and use a feedback loop to sense pressure upstream and run the pump at variable output to provide a constant pressure to the engine so injector duration is the only variable to fuel flow.

[Madsceintist]

Hi,

Corrected me if I'm wrong but the pump move the fuel from the tank to the injectors and the excess fuel back to the tank via the pressure regulator.

The pump's role is to create pressure. For its part, the role of the pressure regulator is to maintains a constant pressure.


Reduce the voltage may damage the pump ?

Reduce the voltage of the pump will not change the pressure in a fuel line, it's just that the pressure regulator that will open less often. Therefore, the pulse duration will be the same and the pressure being the same, the amount of fuel injected is the same

As you believe the system to works is true to a degree. Change anything and you change everything. Theory is one thing, doing is sometimes the opposite. Perhaps not every car will react the same.
Regulators work on pressure and vacuum, they're designed to operate within a specific range. If you fall below that range then they are not effective as they should be.

If you drop below a voltage that can turn the pump, yes you can possibly damage the pump(arc short). If there is enough voltage to turn the pump then you will have no issues. I tried several different pumps and have had no problems with any yet.

Yes changing the supply of fuel to the line DOES change the pressure!! Supply verses demand. You have the same demand but less supply, so the pressure drops. Reduce the fuel supply and you reduce the consumption! This is not an idea, but something that I have found to be true in testing!

[Madsceintist]

He is referring to modern non-return fuel injection systems found in many current autos and in many after market retrofit systems.

Some have a return regulator at the pump so the pump runs continuously while the pressure upstream is constant.

Others have no return at all and use a feedback loop to sense pressure upstream and run the pump at variable output to provide a constant pressure to the engine so injector duration is the only variable to fuel flow.

ANY injected fuel system is in this realm. Whether the pressure regulator is on the engine or in the tank or somewhere else(2003 BMW 330i) regulator is part of the fuel filter! This discussion was open once before, No system known to me as of yet slows or stops the pump to alter fuel pressure.
Bash if you wish, but some of the crude works that I did have were not photographed as it was "crude", and I wanted "prettier" works to be seen. But as I progressed I gave a shi* about those previous things as I found myself not needing them where I have come to.

Though I do have a mess of junk left over in boxes, if you really wish to see!

[RustyLugNut]

ANY injected fuel system is in this realm. Whether the pressure regulator is on the engine or in the tank or somewhere else(2003 BMW 330i) regulator is part of the fuel filter! This discussion was open once before, No system known to me as of yet slows or stops the pump to alter fuel pressure.
Bash if you wish, but some of the crude works that I did have were not photographed as it was "crude", and I wanted "prettier" works to be seen. But as I progressed I gave a shi* about those previous things as I found myself not needing them where I have come to.

Though I do have a mess of junk left over in boxes, if you really wish to see!

If you are here to "facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk", then please educate us and let us reproduce your work. Otherwise, it is seen as narcissistic aggrandizement. For what purpose, I don't know. I would be happy to be proved wrong by you as you help all of us achieve 100+ mpg in our own vehicles.

As far as modern feedback fuel pumps, here is an excerpt from an article by Larry Carley, Technical Editor for Underhood Services, 2009.

"Electronic returnless EFI systems also may be referred to as “On Demand” returnless EFI systems because they use a fuel tank pressure sensor to monitor fuel pressure. The PCM varies the speed of the fuel pump to increase or decrease fuel flow using pulse width modulation (PWM) of the pump’s supply voltage. The PCM determines how much fuel is required based on engine load and inputs from its other sensors. This type of system is typically used on an engine that has an airflow sensor to monitor engine load. "

[Madsceintist]

If you are here to "facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk", then please educate us and let us reproduce your work. Otherwise, it is seen as narcissistic aggrandizement. For what purpose, I don't know. I would be happy to be proved wrong by you as you help all of us achieve 100+ mpg in our own vehicles.

As far as modern feedback fuel pumps, here is an excerpt from an article by Larry Carley, Technical Editor for Underhood Services, 2009.

"Electronic returnless EFI systems also may be referred to as “On Demand” returnless EFI systems because they use a fuel tank pressure sensor to monitor fuel pressure. The PCM varies the speed of the fuel pump to increase or decrease fuel flow using pulse width modulation (PWM) of the pump’s supply voltage. The PCM determines how much fuel is required based on engine load and inputs from its other sensors. This type of system is typically used on an engine that has an airflow sensor to monitor engine load. "

***"Electronic returnless EFI systems also may be referred to as “On Demand” returnless EFI systems because they use a fuel tank pressure sensor to monitor fuel pressure.****

I welcome you yourself to find this as proof and show me! There is a pressure sensor on many of today's tanks, however it is not or does not measure the fuel pressure in any way, it measure's the vacuum/expansion pressure of the tank! This is what the computer uses to activate the EVAP solenoid to create vacuum on the tank to prevent fuel fumes from escaping into the atmosphere,(EPA regulations).

****The PCM varies the speed of the fuel pump to increase or decrease fuel flow using pulse width modulation (PWM) of the pump’s supply voltage. The PCM determines how much fuel is required based on engine load and inputs from its other sensors.****

The PCM does control and determine how much fuel to give the engine via the pulse width of the INJECTORS, NOT the fuel pump!

****This type of system is typically used on an engine that has an airflow sensor to monitor engine load.****

From the late 70's, air flow meters have been in use by different car manufactures and at no point in the ELECTRICAL systems have I heard of or seen one to interfere with the fuel pump operation as this quote say's! On older Mercedes, Volkswagen, Audi, and some other European manufactures there is a mechanical fuel delivery system which the air flow meter is directly a part of the fuel delivery, and yet these cars still have electrical pumps, in some cases 2 of them. HOWEVER, there is still a regulator and a return. The system you seem to want to imagine is not as you want to picture! The in tank pump that you want to be "return-less", in fact does have a regulator IN THE pump housing, which directly returns the fuel IN THE HOUSING! SOME pumps also have it built into the pump and has a very small tube to reroute the fuel back to the pumps inlet, BUT it still has this relief and the pump still has a full system voltage to it, unaltered by the computer!



When I get the chance and time, I will take one of the ones I have apart and take a picture for you of an actual "return-less" pump.

OH BY THE WAY, this quote you have, when I read it, first thought to come to mind was the POPULAR MECHANICS Mike Allen and his article on HHO and how its bogus! When read as you have quoted, I also feel like this was written as 101 for dummies BY dummies!





One more thing.................................. Outside of yourself, is there anyone on here that has not had help from something or everything I have posted? No I haven't posted much as pictures, but there isn't much to see! What I have came up with or have done I can explain pretty well, outside of a few things that I just wont. And I think that with what help I do give, SOME on here could probably do the same thing or better. Some people have more insight into mechanics and hands on then the Intellectual aspect of it doesn't work because I said it cant.

[RustyLugNut]

***"Electronic returnless EFI systems also may be referred to as “On Demand” returnless EFI systems because they use a fuel tank pressure sensor to monitor fuel pressure.****

I welcome you yourself to find this as proof and show me! There is a pressure sensor on many of today's tanks, however it is not or does not measure the fuel pressure in any way, it measure's the vacuum/expansion pressure of the tank! This is what the computer uses to activate the EVAP solenoid to create vacuum on the tank to prevent fuel fumes from escaping into the atmosphere,(EPA regulations).

****The PCM varies the speed of the fuel pump to increase or decrease fuel flow using pulse width modulation (PWM) of the pump’s supply voltage. The PCM determines how much fuel is required based on engine load and inputs from its other sensors.****

The PCM does control and determine how much fuel to give the engine via the pulse width of the INJECTORS, NOT the fuel pump!

****This type of system is typically used on an engine that has an airflow sensor to monitor engine load.****

From the late 70's, air flow meters have been in use by different car manufactures and at no point in the ELECTRICAL systems have I heard of or seen one to interfere with the fuel pump operation as this quote say's! On older Mercedes, Volkswagen, Audi, and some other European manufactures there is a mechanical fuel delivery system which the air flow meter is directly a part of the fuel delivery. HOWEVER, there is still a regulator and a return. The system you seem to want to imagine is not as you want to picture! The in tank pump that you want to be "return-less", in fact does have a regulator IN THE pump housing, which directly returns the fuel IN THE HOUSING! SOME pumps also have it built into the pump and has a very small tube to reroute the fuel back to the pumps inlet, BUT it still has this relief and the pump still has a full system voltage to it, unaltered by the computer!



When I get the chance and time, I will take one of the ones I have apart and take a picture for you of an actual "return-less" pump.

OH BY THE WAY, this quote you have, when I read it, first thought to come to mind was the POPULAR MECHANICS Mike Allen and his article on HHO and how its bogus!

Why don't you argue with the writer of the article. Here is the digital page.

http://www.underhoodservice.com/Arti...n_systems.aspx

The article is from 2009 and it inspired me to build a closed loop controller for the Summit EFI pump I use inline in my Mercedes. There is no return line. A piezo electric pressure sensor feeds a signal to a custom programmed MicroPic micro controller that drives a pair of HexFets which in turn drive the pump via variable duration pulses (PWM).

I am not a mechanic like you are. But, I am an engineer and what I imagine, I can build.

The thing is, you can now purchase after market kits to do the same thing for only a few hundred dollars. Look up Retrotek.