The moring coffe, and thought crossed my mind...

[RustyLugNut]

Yes Ive seen several of those over-unity videos. I would like to try this someday on something that doesn't wear out mechanically. A fuel cell.

No moving parts, equals longevity, and durability. If it possible to work in the same way, with excess, It may prove useful.

Those so called over -unity systems never stand close inspection. I have looked at several HHO and electric generation systems. They do not work as advertised. Some of them are clever and some are very efficient.

The world needs alternatives to our current energy sources. The over-unity wacko's will not, because they cannot provide.

If someone has an over-unity energy system that works, then I'll be the first to applaud and admit my wrong. But all I have seen are honest errors, charlatan tricks and out and out liars.

[ydeardorff]

Didnt Zero Fossil Fuels get a 200% return on his generator/hho tests? I saw the video a awhile ago on his channel.
I forgot the context of what he was referring to in the gains he reported.

I have two 5K gensets, one is a very nice electric start model that I will eventually move my HHO work into. But for now a home heater is my priority with winter pending.

[RustyLugNut]

Didnt Zero Fossil Fuels get a 200% return on his generator/hho tests? I saw the video a awhile ago on his channel.
I forgot the context of what he was referring to in the gains he reported.

I have two 5K gensets, one is a very nice electric start model that I will eventually move my HHO work into. But for now a home heater is my priority with winter pending.

Some of those over-unity videos have been up for years. Gensets that seem to run on nothing but HHO, electric generators that seem to be self propelling and electric circuits that seem to produce an excess of energy. The proof of burden is on them. If you have a viable system, it would prove itself very quickly and you would attract real investment. Instead, you hear stories of disaster, government conspiracies and Big Oil meddling, etc. Simple excuses because they couldn't get their inventions to work.

[myoldyourgold]

But for now a home heater is my priority with winter pending.

The only HHO heater that I have seen that really works was one used with an oil burner. It requires a small compressor and air/HHO reservoir pressure tank to keep the HHO under the flash point while compressing (air to HHO ratio) and then injected with the oil. When all the ratios are right there is a gain and a very clean exhaust. Complicated setup and when your insurance company finds out about it they void the insurance on your home. They visualize an exploding basement. To get is insurable is very expensive. To increase the results you have to experiment with an exotic heat exchanger. The heat exchanger technology is complex when using HHO and this is where there is plenty of room for development.

Rusty is right about over unity. There is only the appearance of over unity. The energy has to come from some where!! None have been duplicated by anyone reliable.

[ydeardorff]

yeah, I see your point.
However, back on subject here. Lets play devils advocate for a bit.
For the purpose of this discussion, lets say we do have a generator capable of keeping up with a given ICE, under a low amperage feed. No matter if that engine is 1/4 of a CC to a 5 liter V8.

We couldnt, I dont think make the system entirely closed loop. although the emissions would be significantly reduced in terms of volume. We would still have to add in new HHO to keep the reaction working. So a small amount of bleed off would be necessary.
Im thinking we would need:
Some way to cool the exhaust down back to ambient temp for the next cycle.
A way to reclaim the water vapor, and condense it back into useable water.

To retard the spark for HHO

And exhaust pressure relief valve

And an HHO feed into the intake.

Im not going to say it couldnt be done, as lack of a successful prototype doesnt mean it "cant be done" it just hasnt been figured out yet.

Would it be difficult sure, no big leap there. But what Im thinking of, is a more efficient method than gasoline, with little, or no emissions. Then a fuel source that is perpetually recycling itself. Or at least lasts longer to a level no one has ever though possible.

The ICE has and was designed like an air compressor pump. Its design revolves around getting rid of the poisonous gasses, not reclaiming them, for re-use. Gasoline has roughly one third of the energy of hydrogen when ignited, but the flame front is different. For instance the reason diesel engines produce so much torque is because it is a slower burning fuel than gasoline, and burns most of the pistons power stroke. So the power stroke of the diesel engine is different than a gasoline engine. Hydrogen, on the other side of the coin from gasoline burns 5 times faster than gasoline. So even the bore and stroke of the engine may need to be redesigned for optimum use. Such as a very short engine stroke.
But I feel the theory is sound, problem is without deep private pockets a design like this wouldn't see the light of day, EVER. No corporation would make money on a car that consumes little fuel, and doesn't require any, or very few fuel refills.

[ydeardorff]

The only HHO heater that I have seen that really works was one used with an oil burner. It requires a small compressor and air/HHO reservoir pressure tank to keep the HHO under the flash point while compressing (air to HHO ratio) and then injected with the oil. When all the ratios are right there is a gain and a very clean exhaust. Complicated setup and when your insurance company finds out about it they void the insurance on your home. They visualize an exploding basement. To get is insurable is very expensive. To increase the results you have to experiment with an exotic heat exchanger. The heat exchanger technology is complex when using HHO and this is where there is plenty of room for development.

Rusty is right about over unity. There is only the appearance of over unity. The energy has to come from some where!! None have been duplicated by anyone reliable.

Im designing my HHO space heater like a furnace. Unlike the ones seen on youtube, mine is built vertically, with tons of safety systems installed. Its a "set it and forget it" design. It even has a digital thermostat controlling it. Im basing my design on home gas furnaces only shorter. The hot section is separated from the production side, fully insulated, and air flow controlled. After my time in the navy, safety is very high on my list of priorities.

[RustyLugNut]

What you are suggesting is over-unity. Can you run your engine on nothing but HHO? Yes . . . until you run out off HHO. "But I will just make more HHO and do it more efficiently" you say. You cannot make HHO at over 100% efficiency. The laws of the physical world won't allow it. In reality, we struggle to exceed 50% efficiency with our electrolysis generators. Subtract the losses I have already mentioned, and your engine will stop functioning when your energy input stops. HHO is just an "ENERGY CARRIER". Just like OIL and NATURAL GAS. If you understand this concept, you will understand the impossibility you are suggesting.

yeah, I see your point.
However, back on subject here. Lets play devils advocate for a bit.
For the purpose of this discussion, lets say we do have a generator capable of keeping up with a given ICE, under a low amperage feed. No matter if that engine is 1/4 of a CC to a 5 liter V8.

We couldnt, I dont think make the system entirely closed loop. although the emissions would be significantly reduced in terms of volume. We would still have to add in new HHO to keep the reaction working. So a small amount of bleed off would be necessary.
Im thinking we would need:
Some way to cool the exhaust down back to ambient temp for the next cycle.
A way to reclaim the water vapor, and condense it back into useable water.

To retard the spark for HHO

And exhaust pressure relief valve

And an HHO feed into the intake.

Im not going to say it couldnt be done, as lack of a successful prototype doesnt mean it "cant be done" it just hasnt been figured out yet.

Would it be difficult sure, no big leap there. But what Im thinking of, is a more efficient method than gasoline, with little, or no emissions. Then a fuel source that is perpetually recycling itself. Or at least lasts longer to a level no one has ever though possible.

The ICE has and was designed like an air compressor pump. Its design revolves around getting rid of the poisonous gasses, not reclaiming them, for re-use. Gasoline has roughly one third of the energy of hydrogen when ignited, but the flame front is different. For instance the reason diesel engines produce so much torque is because it is a slower burning fuel than gasoline, and burns most of the pistons power stroke. So the power stroke of the diesel engine is different than a gasoline engine. Hydrogen, on the other side of the coin from gasoline burns 5 times faster than gasoline. So even the bore and stroke of the engine may need to be redesigned for optimum use. Such as a very short engine stroke.
But I feel the theory is sound, problem is without deep private pockets a design like this wouldn't see the light of day, EVER. No corporation would make money on a car that consumes little fuel, and doesn't require any, or very few fuel refills.

I will be courteous and not dissect your post point by point because it has been done here and in other places over and over. But I will address your last paragraph since it is a fallacy put forth by the conspiracy theorists.

Car companies do not care what fuel their vehicles run on. They make money selling and servicing cars. Here in San Diego, the Mitsubishi iMev electric as well as the electric Smart Cars are selling well and are seen more often. The Chevy Volt has sold well. I have friends who enjoy not having to go to a gas station more than once a month. A significant portion of our electric services here in Southern California is increasingly provided by clean natural gas, solar and wind power. And, there is nothing big oil can do about it!

Believe me when I say the giant car corporations want more efficient cars and cars with alternative energy, just as long as the customers WANT such cars. And people do want them. Look at the Prius . . . it has sold more than 1 million units as of this writing.

[Madsceintist]

Here we go.....................again !
You just walked yourself into a wall, Rusty. You say just an energy carrier, ehh !
Natural gas ? a carrier? No I think the last time I drove a fork lift, I was running on natural gas...... I think ! NO, I know I was !! Or it was. Or maybe I was and I thought it was .. One of them.

You tube may have too many fools committing tom foolery, but it also has it's sincere parties that are just like us. I must say that you (Rusty), disappoint me! This site is supposed to be here to support and lead people in a positive direction, and a truthful one! You are attempting to lead this man away from something that not only is truth, but his theory that is already proven to work. Even if you yourself haven't seen it or believe it.

Car manufactures are in the business to keep you in a newer model as often as possible...............
The Chevy Volt; when the battery pack is out of life, or out of warranty, the replacement value totals the car itself !!!!
One huge question as well ! Where and what powers the filling stations that these electric cars plug into ?? ........Mostly coal burning energy plants. Several other power plants have coal as a back-up for the lack of power from Hydro or Nuclear.
The west coast is one of the few places that utilize solar and wind in great amounts, but you left out the rest of the world.
Big oil is only as big as it is due to the government, and the government is getting bigger and bigger due to oil. Control comes by giving the wanting and needing what they want and need. As long as they stay in control, they will do what ever it takes to keep that power. You can not take away what is driving the world economy!! It wont be allowed, regardless of theories. Until they figure out a way to make a profit off of us using HHO, it will remain this bogus, garage made, inefficient fallacy that it is called by some!

ydeardorff;
Many cars today and of yesterday have the majority of what is needed for your thoughts. Intake, exhaust, egr system, spark. Not all engines have an egr system, but it's easy to retro most that aren't. Anything that has less computer control the better!
If you will notice that in the video that Rusty says is not real, the only thing going in to the intake tube is HHO and a small amount of metered air at the cell. They had to make shift the timing adjustment which is a must.
I don't know what cc that motor is , but my small cell ran a 2.2 liter engine at idle and low rpm at 55-70 mph, without trouble. This was in the same fashion that anyone on here uses an HHO system. My Toyota is more to the sum of the Meyers system. So this cell and set-up is NOT as far fetched as some will lead you to believe! Until you yourself have exhausted any and all avenues, don't let someone pull the rug out from under your thoughts! If or when you run into a problem with your works, I will be of whatever help that I can to you, or will refer you to someone that may be better suited for your need !! Continue on..................

[ydeardorff]

Well, Im not gonna bust on rusty. I think hes trying to convey information accurately. However gruff it may come across sometimes.

Each new idea does need grounding. And what rusty has mentioned are many things that must be over come. Many of these things are not as easy as they seem. With new technologies opening up all day long, every day, it is impossible for anyone to say "It cant be done". Even the extent to which we have taken HHO to this day is a major leap forward from 100+ years ago.

“Education’s purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one”
Malcolm Forbes

The trick here is to ensure we do not close our minds to new ideas, and continually try to think outside the box. But not so far outside as to not find the box again.

For instance, HHO heaters (a project of which I am now working on). Many people have tried varying techniques, but have missed the mark. Sure they may make a decent heater, but not one that will effectively work the way they want it.
I am taking a new approach, built off of others work. But this is how its done, and has been done for decades, if not centuries.
Heck, one day we may end up with a car that uses an hydrogen cell that powers a fuel cell to drive an all electric car. An on demand HHO/Electric Hybrid. Zero emissions, unlimited MPG etc. No ICE to wear out. Just wheel bearings, brakes, and electric motors to service. Can it be done now, I dont think so, and probably not. But who, knows with the right motivation it might be figured out. 4 dollars a gallon is one heck of a motivator for me. And my electric bill being 3-500 per month in the winter if I use electric heat is also not on my happy list.

[RustyLugNut]

Here we go.....................again !
You just walked yourself into a wall, Rusty. You say just an energy carrier, ehh !
Natural gas ? a carrier? No I think the last time I drove a fork lift, I was running on natural gas...... I think ! NO, I know I was !! Or it was. Or maybe I was and I thought it was .. One of them.

You tube may have too many fools committing tom foolery, but it also has it's sincere parties that are just like us. I must say that you (Rusty), disappoint me! This site is supposed to be here to support and lead people in a positive direction, and a truthful one! You are attempting to lead this man away from something that not only is truth, but his theory that is already proven to work. Even if you yourself haven't seen it or believe it.

Car manufactures are in the business to keep you in a newer model as often as possible...............
The Chevy Volt; when the battery pack is out of life, or out of warranty, the replacement value totals the car itself !!!!
One huge question as well ! Where and what powers the filling stations that these electric cars plug into ?? ........Mostly coal burning energy plants. Several other power plants have coal as a back-up for the lack of power from Hydro or Nuclear.
The west coast is one of the few places that utilize solar and wind in great amounts, but you left out the rest of the world.
Big oil is only as big as it is due to the government, and the government is getting bigger and bigger due to oil. Control comes by giving the wanting and needing what they want and need. As long as they stay in control, they will do what ever it takes to keep that power. You can not take away what is driving the world economy!! It wont be allowed, regardless of theories. Until they figure out a way to make a profit off of us using HHO, it will remain this bogus, garage made, inefficient fallacy that it is called by some!

ydeardorff;
Many cars today and of yesterday have the majority of what is needed for your thoughts. Intake, exhaust, egr system, spark. Not all engines have an egr system, but it's easy to retro most that aren't. Anything that has less computer control the better!
If you will notice that in the video that Rusty says is not real, the only thing going in to the intake tube is HHO and a small amount of metered air at the cell. They had to make shift the timing adjustment which is a must.
I don't know what cc that motor is , but my small cell ran a 2.2 liter engine at idle and low rpm at 55-70 mph, without trouble. This was in the same fashion that anyone on here uses an HHO system. My Toyota is more to the sum of the Meyers system. So this cell and set-up is NOT as far fetched as some will lead you to believe! Until you yourself have exhausted any and all avenues, don't let someone pull the rug out from under your thoughts! If or when you run into a problem with your works, I will be of whatever help that I can to you, or will refer you to someone that may be better suited for your need !! Continue on..................

Mad, the fact that you do not know what an energy carrier is exposes your ignorance. Follow the high value energy stream from the source to it's final use and it's loss into low grade energy. The energy carrier cannot produce more energy than what it was given. The natural gas in your forklift analogy expends energy. It does not produce it.

Mad, I've called you out numerous times on this forum. You cannot produce any shred of evidence that you have "2 vehicles that run on nothing but HHO". And you never will. I have seen several "engines that run on nothing but HHO". I made the inspection after what seemed to be the baffling ability to run on "nothing but HHO". But they had energy input streams that slipped the investors notice. I asked the inventor to redo the test without the input streams. None could run after that. The HHO and water were still there. It even ran for a bit showing great efficiency on one unit. But they all wind down without an energy input stream. I'll make you a bet Mad. A million dollar bet. There are investors that do nothing but throw money at business ideas. If you let them see your "HHO cars that run on nothing but HHO and water", they will fund you to an initial offering of a million USD. The problem is, these guys hire myself and others to inspect technology. I will find out how your system by passes the laws of nature. I will ask you to shut off the energy streams. Your system will grind to a halt. You will be discredited. Or . . . maybe your system works and you become rich beyond your wildest dreams and the world is a better place! But, we all know you won't do it. Because you hide behind this and other forums where any claim can be made and left unsubstantiated and linked to video streams that are simply that . . . movies. We all know special effects are not possible right? Everything in the movies is real.

You ask me to talk about truth? So, let's see it from you Mad? You say you are a master mechanic, and yet you have holes in your knowledge. And you won't admit it. I remind the reader to look back on an argument between Mad and myself concerning PWM fuel injection pumps. Mad didn't know of their practical applications in current production and after market fuel systems. And he asks you, the reader, to trust his knowledge of science which lies outside his field of expertise? To trust the "fact he has systems that run on HHO and water"? The burden of proof lies with the inventor. It has always been that way. And it still is.

I gave the examples of alternative energy sources and alternative transport systems to point out that these systems do exist and are growing. They work and are becoming main stream even if only in a regional way. They serve to undermine the conspiracy theorists belief that "Big Oil" controls everything. That their monopoly on energy is absolute. That they will "silence" anyone in their way. If you are clever enough to build a car that runs on "nothing but HHO", then you will be clever enough to protect your intellectual property. My company has electronic server storage and physical repositories on three continents and an undisclosed island. And it costs us less than a hundred a month to maintain this security. If Meyer and his ilk were so brilliant, you would think he would have been brilliant enough to protect and disseminate his findings since he was such an altruist.

As to the battery pack in the Chevy Volt, . . . Just like the pack in the Toyota Prius, the replacement pack will increased in performance and decreased in price. Battery technology is improving. After 10 years, your pack isn't just junked. It still has storage capacity, just not to manufacturers specs. It will be bought up and will spend it's last few years as massive battery back ups for peak load topping in your local energy company's arsenal. There are numerous government grants putting this into practice. Your trade in value can be used to buy a newer more capable battery pack. Yes, GM makes money on your pack and it's installation. But, you won't need another one for years if all goes right. If you run the Volt's ICE genset on alternative fuels, Big Oil can be cut out of the loop. And they can't do a thing about silencing the technology. That is the point I am trying to make.

Real, useful technology will make it into the light of day one way or another if there is a want and need.