The moring coffe, and thought crossed my mind...

[ydeardorff]

Hey guys/gals,

Now Im sure, Im missing a lot on this thought. But it crossed my mind today as I am waking up and getting my day going starting with a fresh pot of coffee.

So here goes....

Take any internal combustion engine....
Im wondering if we've been thinking about this all wrong, or at least in part.
Now hydroxy gas has broken water into 1-O and 2-H's. So in theory here (its an early morning still drinking coffee theory so don't blast me) When hydroxy is combusted it reverts back into water vapor, and oxygen, yes? Okay, so if this could be reclaimed, and split again we wouldn't need 500+ LPM on a hydrogen booster, would we? The idea here is in physics nothing is destroyed it is just re-arranged.

Quote from wikipedia ( I know its not the most reliable source)

A pure stoichiometric mixture may be obtained by water electrolysis, which uses an electric current to dissociate the water molecules:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2 (corrected) H2O -> H2 + O
combustion: 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O (corrected) H2+ O -> H2O

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxy_gas


So since we would be re-introducing the same gases already used, and splitting the condensed water vapor back into hydrogen, the engine would need less, or no fresh intake air. The engine would be re-using the gases it already used ad be supplemented as needed with fresh hydroxy gas that was reclaimed from the prior combustion process.

My thought here is that in an engine design that has largely remained unchanged for nearly 100 years. The air pump that is a gasoline engine might need a larger rethinking if hydrogen were to be a primary fuel source.

Is this idea perfect? of course not. There are other gases like NO, CO, and CO2 to contend with. But Im wondering about the feasibility of this idea of a recycling engine. Even if the engine is only using the gases more efficiently, rather than a completely closed system.

The issue here I think would be more heat removal (exhaust temps are hot), and water vapor reclamation, and splitting speed. The HHO device via a sensor would only need to maintain the hho content at a proper ratio, rather than trying to compete with the CFM of the intake pulling in fresh air. Or would the same problem still be production rate of the cell?

Thoughts?

[RustyLugNut]

Hey guys/gals,

Now Im sure, Im missing a lot on this thought. But it crossed my mind today as I am waking up and getting my day going starting with a fresh pot of coffee.

So here goes....

Take any internal combustion engine....
Im wondering if we've been thinking about this all wrong, or at least in part.
Now hydroxy gas has broken water into 1-O and 2-H's. So in theory here (its an early morning still drinking coffee theory so don't blast me) When hydroxy is combusted it reverts back into water vapor, and oxygen, yes? Okay, so if this could be reclaimed, and split again we wouldn't need 500+ LPM on a hydrogen booster. The idea here is in physics nothing is destroyed it is just re-arranged.

Quote from wikipedia ( I know its not the most reliable source)

A pure stoichiometric mixture may be obtained by water electrolysis, which uses an electric current to dissociate the water molecules:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2 (corrected) H2O -> H2 + O
combustion: 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O (corrected) H2+ O -> H2O

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxy_gas


So since we would be re-introducing the left over oxygen, and splitting the condensed water vapor back into hydrogen, the engine would need less, or no fresh intake air. The engine would be re-using the gases it already used ad be supplemented as needed with fresh hydroxy gas that was reclaimed from the prior combustion process.

My thought here is that in an engine design that has largely remained unchanged for nearly 100 years. The air pump that is a gasoline engine might need a larger rethinking if hydrogen were to be a primary fuel source.

Is this idea perfect? of course not. There are other gases like NO, CO, and CO2 to contend with. But Im wondering about the feasibility of this idea of a recycling engine. Even if the engine is only using the gases more efficiently, rather than a completely closed system.

The issue here I think would be more heat removal (exhaust temps are hot), and water vapor reclamation speed. The HHO device via a sensor would only need to maintain the hho content at a proper ratio, rather than trying to compete with the CFM of the intake pulling in fresh air.

Thoughts?

First off, there is no excess oxygen if all you are combusting is a stoichiometric mix of HHO. There is no nitrogen present so no NOx production and the small amounts of CO and CO2 would come from your lubricant slip.

HHO combustion is very rapid - almost an explosion. Heat production is tremendous but with the small amounts of HHO we can produce, and the extended expansion cycle that will result (Atkinson cycle - aka Prius) exhaust temperature will be relatively low. Condensation of the exhaust vapors can be made relatively rapid.

The problem is making the HHO rapidly enough. That is the bottom line and your limiting variable. "Power in" minus process losses means you will be losing energy in your "closed cycle" which isn't really closed since you will be extracting work from it and you will lose work in the condenser. Throw in friction and heat losses and pumping losses to boot and you come up with the need for a LARGE electrical input needed just to idle the engine on HHO.

[ydeardorff]

yeah I figured as much. Seemed like a good idea. At least in part. Seems it all comes down to the cell production rate again. Even with hydrogen releasing 3 times the energy of gasoline its still not enough.
Although I have experimented with the corrosion cell theory in my cell designs. And found pairing more reactive metals with each other leads to greater production at lower amperage. See (corrosion cell)
Its still not enough though. Makes me ponder what is the road block here in our designs.

[RustyLugNut]

Its still not enough though. Makes me ponder what is the road block here in our designs.

Our understanding of it is what limits us. That is why we continue to prod the edges of our understanding ( basic research ) so that we can see avenues to applications.

What you have suggested is a dead end. But many of the principles discussed could/can be used to improve the internal combustion engine. The Atkinson cycle ( over expansion ) is already used in the Prius and other commercial engines. Reduced ring seal friction is a big percentage gain in efficiency that manufacturers are working on. Reduced pumping losses via non- throttled operation (Diesels and other compression ignition systems) is an obvious application. Even the idea of running pure oxygen and hydrocarbon fuel to eliminate NOx and increase operating temperatures has been tried. HHO can be part of the equation in improving the efficiency of the IC engine.

If you want an efficient closed loop heat engine, study the Stirling engine.

[Madsceintist]

Hey guys/gals,

Now Im sure, Im missing a lot on this thought. But it crossed my mind today as I am waking up and getting my day going starting with a fresh pot of coffee.

So here goes....

Take any internal combustion engine....
Im wondering if we've been thinking about this all wrong, or at least in part.
Now hydroxy gas has broken water into 1-O and 2-H's. So in theory here (its an early morning still drinking coffee theory so don't blast me) When hydroxy is combusted it reverts back into water vapor, and oxygen, yes? Okay, so if this could be reclaimed, and split again we wouldn't need 500+ LPM on a hydrogen booster, would we? The idea here is in physics nothing is destroyed it is just re-arranged.

Quote from wikipedia ( I know its not the most reliable source)

A pure stoichiometric mixture may be obtained by water electrolysis, which uses an electric current to dissociate the water molecules:

electrolysis: 2 H2O → 2 H2 + O2 (corrected) H2O -> H2 + O
combustion: 2 H2 + O2 → 2 H2O (corrected) H2+ O -> H2O

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxy_gas


So since we would be re-introducing the same gases already used, and splitting the condensed water vapor back into hydrogen, the engine would need less, or no fresh intake air. The engine would be re-using the gases it already used ad be supplemented as needed with fresh hydroxy gas that was reclaimed from the prior combustion process.

My thought here is that in an engine design that has largely remained unchanged for nearly 100 years. The air pump that is a gasoline engine might need a larger rethinking if hydrogen were to be a primary fuel source.

Is this idea perfect? of course not. There are other gases like NO, CO, and CO2 to contend with. But Im wondering about the feasibility of this idea of a recycling engine. Even if the engine is only using the gases more efficiently, rather than a completely closed system.

The issue here I think would be more heat removal (exhaust temps are hot), and water vapor reclamation, and splitting speed. The HHO device via a sensor would only need to maintain the hho content at a proper ratio, rather than trying to compete with the CFM of the intake pulling in fresh air. Or would the same problem still be production rate of the cell?

Thoughts?

Ah, I see I do have a calling here.....................
You ydeardorff, would do well to study Stan Meyers work extremely close as I think you may have more ambition to complete the task that I have found to be be most factual. Stan did exactly what you are theorizing. I knew when I first found 'HHO" that with the first few experiments that it could be a direct replacement not just an addition to or supplement for gasoline.
I had a Chevrolet Cavalier that I drove on this concept, and a Toyota Corolla as well, which is under reconstruction for higher compression. As I am reading your post, I am truly excited to hear someone else that has the same for-site. I hope that you will not give up on this as it is very time consuming and difficult, BUT well worth it. I will give you what ever advise that I can, and help you in the right direction when needed.
DO NOT LET SOME ON HERE DISMISS THIS AS IMPOSSIBLE OR FRAUDULENT, it will be up to you to decide when you find the truth.




This isn't a completely closed loop cycle at all, but you have the correct set-up in mind. As I have said many, many times, you have to process everything that goes in to the engine. Air, water, exhaust all are processed to a needed structure, then measured to a required amount, and used as the fuel to run the car. The only fuel is completely processed out of water, PLAIN water !!


P.M. me if you wish........

[ydeardorff]

If I did try to play with this idea. It would be on something tiny like a 4 stroke weed whacker motor or something that my cell will easily keep up with.
But Im sure, the learned people here would more than likely proven right. But it would be fun to come up with something that worked, even if it had no actual use.
I just find it fun to experiment. seeing and understanding the results is fun. Plus it keeps me busy.

[Madsceintist]

If I did try to play with this idea. It would be on something tiny like a 4 stroke weed whacker motor or something that my cell will easily keep up with.
But Im sure, the learned people here would more than likely proven right. But it would be fun to come up with something that worked, even if it had no actual use.
I just find it fun to experiment. seeing and understanding the results is fun. Plus it keeps me busy.

You will love this than............
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=FL...&v=Hy88V4CWgJ0

[ydeardorff]

If it were in english that would have been better.
Seeing it run would have been nice too.

Looks like he is using a custom made circuit powered by the engine coil positive and negative terminals. The white gears on the back are some sort of gear reduction for the generator. The stick on the big gear cant turn a full revolution so, not sure of its purpose. Its then tied into what looks like an inverter to run something Im guessing.

20 years in the US Navy help me decipher languages, ... sometimes. This was not one of those times. LOL

[Madsceintist]

If it were in english that would have been better.
Seeing it run would have been nice too.

Looks like he is using a custom made circuit powered by the engine coil positive and negative terminals. The white gears on the back are some sort of gear reduction for the generator. The stick on the big gear cant turn a full revolution so, not sure of its purpose. Its then tied into what looks like an inverter to run something Im guessing.

20 years in the US Navy help me decipher languages, ... sometimes. This was not one of those times. LOL

That wooden gear set-up is the alteration of the engines timing for the firing of the coil. Being as HHO has such a higher ignition rate you have to alter the timing a large amount.


My bad, try this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMlci...feature=relmfu

[ydeardorff]

Yes Ive seen several of those over-unity videos. I would like to try this someday on something that doesn't wear out mechanically. A fuel cell.

No moving parts, equals longevity, and durability. If it possible to work in the same way, with excess, It may prove useful.