The moring coffe, and thought crossed my mind...

[Madsceintist]

If this were about you and I, Rusty I would continue on with our nonsense. Just because I'm not in the spot-light with my work or a court room for fraud, doesn't mean that I have to prove to YOU, anything! I have witnesses to my work and that is satisfactory for me. I do not need or seek your approval.
The fine people on this forum also do not need your skepticism. Your help when it isn't in a beating is however appreciated.
I do understand energy carriers and wasn't meaning it the way you took it. However you say that HHO isn't the same, or at least that is how I took it. But then you admit to seeing engines run on HHO .. ?? !! Make up your mind, please.
You know sometimes I think you want to take something that you didn't come up with, so as to run with it as your own. I will help people to achieve what has been done, but I will not GIVE you mine. It is a package, a system and will be available when protected. I can and will refer people to what I have used to make it as far as I have, but those who choose to go there must figure out how to build what is needed, if they can get a grasp on the parts and intent, then they too will succeed.
I will admit without a doubt that it hasn't been easy, and still have some issues. I spent the first year of my first coming across the use of HHO as fuel, up night and day, endlessly. It drove me nuts trying to figure out what the aspects were of its ability. I now know. So lets agree to disagree and end the badgering, unless you sincerely wish to continue. I am very hard headed, and can go either way. But I also suppose that is due to my ignorance ............

[RustyLugNut]

. . .I spent the first year of my first coming across the use of HHO as fuel, up night and day, endlessly. It drove me nuts trying to figure out what the aspects were of its ability. I now know. So lets agree to disagree and end the badgering, unless you sincerely wish to continue. I am very hard headed, and can go either way. But I also suppose that is due to my ignorance ............

I know a thing or two about HHO production and use. I have designed and built hydrogen and oxygen generators for industrial use.

You think highly of yourself don't you? You don't even understand the arguments I put out against the use of HHO as an over-unity mechanism. I have done nothing more than call out the wacko's who populate this forum. Ignorance is applauded on this forum. I stand on the other side . . . the side of reason and experience. You have a right to say all the drivel you want, and I don't have the right to challenge you? I told you I have seen HHO systems that seem to run the car's engine all by it's lonesome. I know that can't be by the laws of nature. Oh, it looked puzzling for a minute. But I saw quite quickly how it worked. Once I put an end to the energy stream, it didn't work. I can already surmise how your system performs as it does. If you had anything that really worked you wouldn't be on this forum. Your partners would can you. Or you are Mad . . . Never mind, you already admit that part.

It is obvious you never were on the debate team. You have a hard time following the salient points. The pivotal point was over-unity. It is not found in nature, and it will not be found in man's devices. What ydeardorff was suggesting will not work. Many people claim they have it but it continues to elude them. I will trust in nature, science and engineering. They are proven to work. You claim over-unity with your device . . . I call your claim false. You are not just arguing with me, you are arguing against nature.

And beating you down? I beat down ignorance, untruth and lies. You just happen to be the bearer of such. I challenge claims that propagate these lies. Your claims fall under this category. You don't have to prove anything to me. I already KNOW how your system will perform . . . or won't.

You call yourself hard headed. I on the other hand strive to be clear headed.

[Madsceintist]

I know a thing or two about HHO production and use. I have designed and built hydrogen and oxygen generators for industrial use.

You think highly of yourself don't you? You don't even understand the arguments I put out against the use of HHO as an over-unity mechanism. I have done nothing more than call out the wacko's who populate this forum. Ignorance is applauded on this forum. I stand on the other side . . . the side of reason and experience. You have a right to say all the drivel you want, and I don't have the right to challenge you? I told you I have seen HHO systems that seem to run the car's engine all by it's lonesome. I know that can't be by the laws of nature. Oh, it looked puzzling for a minute. But I saw quite quickly how it worked. Once I put an end to the energy stream, it didn't work. I can already surmise how your system performs as it does. If you had anything that really worked you wouldn't be on this forum. Your partners would can you. Or you are Mad . . . Never mind, you already admit that part.

It is obvious you never were on the debate team. You have a hard time following the salient points. The pivotal point was over-unity. It is not found in nature, and it will not be found in man's devices. What ydeardorff was suggesting will not work. Many people claim they have it but it continues to elude them. I will trust in nature, science and engineering. They are proven to work. You claim over-unity with your device . . . I call your claim false. You are not just arguing with me, you are arguing against nature.

And beating you down? I beat down ignorance, untruth and lies. You just happen to be the bearer of such. I challenge claims that propagate these lies. Your claims fall under this category. You don't have to prove anything to me. I already KNOW how your system will perform . . . or won't.

You call yourself hard headed. I on the other hand strive to be clear headed.

I can't argue with you on most of what you say. Yes I do understand very well how everything in nature wears or winds down. Aside from the earth spinning and the sun coming up every morning! I'm sure in due time that too will wind down! However, you are missing my point, but I do understand your site on this. Take away a part of the process and it will wind down or die, Duh !!! It's not just a cell and a motor. Nor do I have a hidden power supply outside of the cars ability to recharge the battery which is the primary source of energy input(to start). Nor do you drive a car until the wheels fall off without maintenance and repairs(some do). Regardless, with or without the HHO or other substitutes, you WILL have wear and tear on any car, and repairs.

Lets see what happens when you remove something from the energy stream;


1 ........
Typical car; 4 cylinder, has a battery, alternator, other accessories. Runs and drives on it's own produced power from a fuel source on board in which happens to be gasoline.

Take away the gasoline. It dies!
or
Take away the battery. It will eventually die when the alternator wears out and has no power to feed the system running everything!
or
Take away the alternator. It will also die when the battery's voltage drops to low to run the system!

2 ........
Same typical car; 4 cylinder, has a battery, alternator, other accessories. Runs and drives using an on board system to manufacture it's own produced power from a fuel source on board which happens to be water!

Take away the water. It dies!
or
Take away the battery. It will eventually die when the alternator wears out and has no power to feed the system running everything!
or
Take away the alternator. It will also die when the battery's voltage drops to low to run the system!

The major difference with the two is that the car running on water is running on water !!! There are many modifications to the basics of the systems. Many added components and yet some deleted components as well! NO SYSTEM IS AN OVER UNITY SYSTEM ! They all take energy to produce energy, and they all lose energy in that process.
Everything can be manipulated to some extent, including the laws of nature! Case in point; Stem cells that were created from DNA strands without an embryo!
I'm not a scientist or a newly found inventor that has found something amazing. It was here before me and will be found by many after me as well, except for you, apparently. It works for those who wish to make the effort with the ability to decipher extremely small details and put them to real, practical use.
As they say......... There's more than one way to skin a cat !

[BioFarmer93]

Mad-
Now you know why I don't hang out here anymore...

Rusty-
Refresh me on what you have actually contributed to this forum, I afraid I haven't done much reading here since you resurfaced and started slamming everyone with your professional mega-knowledge and poo-poo attitude about all things not accomplished in a PhD staffed multimillion dollar lab. It's obvious that we're just too low on the scientific totem pole for the attentions of big brained elitist science snobs like you, Rusty. Or, do you simply post here to "stir the pot" so to speak, to show our pathetically ignorant responses to your uber-geek cohorts so that you all can have a good laugh at our expense?
I'm thoroughly aware that I'm a horses ass on occasion, but you sir have zero clearance speaking to anyone's arrogance other than your own. As horses asses go, you bring to mind the image of a Clydesdale in a lab coat. Aren't there professional level forums for you to hang out and be a professional level jerk in? I think Farrah Day and yourself would make a marvelous pair. You two could breed and make a whole litter of blindered, expensively educated elitist little science snobs and run rampant over all of the amateur-dedicated boards like this one.

[RustyLugNut]

Mad-
Now you know why I don't hang out here anymore...

Rusty-
Refresh me on what you have actually contributed to this forum, I afraid I haven't done much reading here since you resurfaced and started slamming everyone with your professional mega-knowledge and poo-poo attitude about all things not accomplished in a PhD staffed multimillion dollar lab. It's obvious that we're just too low on the scientific totem pole for the attentions of big brained elitist science snobs like you, Rusty. Or, do you simply post here to "stir the pot" so to speak, to show our pathetically ignorant responses to your uber-geek cohorts so that you all can have a good laugh at our expense?
I'm thoroughly aware that I'm a horses ass on occasion, but you sir have zero clearance speaking to anyone's arrogance other than your own. As horses asses go, you bring to mind the image of a Clydesdale in a lab coat. Aren't there professional level forums for you to hang out and be a professional level jerk in? I think Farrah Day and yourself would make a marvelous pair. You two could breed and make a whole litter of blindered, expensively educated elitist little science snobs and run rampant over all of the amateur-dedicated boards like this one.

You have more ass in your post than some music videos. . .

Yes I am here to stir the pot. And I do have a very specific agenda. I fear this forum will not be able to help me achieve it ( tongue in cheek sarcasm meter beeping wildly).

I build out of my little garage items of value to people who invent. Of course my garage is stacked with CNC controlled equipment so I am not your average tinkerer. And I can help people with real engineering. And I build for the company I work for on a contract basis. I do post on other high brow science forums - where I am the villain because I believe ( know) that HHO works in a positive way. More and more, the highbrows come to realize there could be something to this HHO by electrolysis and vapor carburetors and HCS. But you have to speak to them in their language. And use the very principles they use. There is no hiding. Hopefully, some of them will move industry to action. There already is and has been action by industry in the areas of vapor and hydrogen application albeit with much resistance.

The PMs I receive bring good discussion and bad. It also brings work. I have some on the bench right now because of this forum. There is so much spam on this forum with nary a care, so I simply join in the discussion as an impassioned spammer. But I keep it directly centered on this forum and it's needs.

And I care about this forum. Good things come out of here. We have folks on here who can cut your plates, design waterless bubblers and have pre-made gasket spacers. The electronics side is lagging but is showing much involvement. Winning the electronics battle has become the biggest issue for the average HHO user as these vehicles dominate the automotive mix in the first and second world.

I have hope for this forum because there is enough here for the average tinkerer to build something that just might help him or her gain an economy edge just as long as their EXPECTATIONS are realistic. Outlandish claims of over-unity and such lead people to believe things that are unreachable by the garage experimenter and industry in general. And people walk away disparaging the technology and the people who took their money not realizing the value it has in the proper application.

So, go ahead and call me names. It won't matter to me. I will still get PMs and provide discussion and services. Look at my post history. I post to things I have knowledge and experience. I ask that others do the same. If it breaks the laws of science, then watch out, I'm the volunteer watch dog. At least when I have the time.

As to technology, everyone will have to hold each other accountable. I am the first to acknowledge my lack of expertise in many fields and you will see me post little to nothing in those fields. I ask others to do the same. Mad steps over the line when he veers away from the automotive tech he is good at and makes claims that inflate peoples expectations. I do not dog his posts. Corrections in that field will have to come from other mechanics. I encourage them to join in as it is sorely needed on this forum.

A concerted effort is needed to move towards providing something that will "facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk". Over-unity and inflated claims detract from that effort. Forum members can produce effective HHO generators. We still must tackle the electronics integration. Then we will have to have industry step in and mass produce components to make this available to those who are not tinkerers.

We should embrace the HCS camp as they have a viable technology. I put up a post of my experiences, no matter how old it is. HHO and HCS might be the winning ticket to this all - to bridge the oil resources we now have till the time we find new energy carriers and new energy sources.

[hhoconnection]

All of this in-fighting makes me sick! It all boils down to one word...TACT. There is nothing wrong with challenging someone or disagreeing with them but just do it in a TACTFUL manner. That was the problem with Farra Day. She was brilliant, but socially clueless. Rusty, we are all on the same team here, just talk to others the same way you want to be talked to and there won't be any problems.

[BioFarmer93]

Huh, I'll be darned.. Perhaps you have a saving grace then. If that's truly the case then why not try delivering your wisdom and/or your skepticism of other members accomplishments with a bit (quite a bit) less of the sneery "I'm a professional and smarter/better than you, you don't understand squat." theme that comes through all too well in your posts. Understand that you are not the only one that receives PM's, and the ones I've received lately that complain about you is over 30%. From people that rarely complain. I'm done with this topic for now, respond or not as you see fit. However, I do reserve the right to light your butt up in the future upon observation of you behaving poorly toward my friends. That is all.

[RustyLugNut]

All of this in-fighting makes me sick! It all boils down to one word...TACT. There is nothing wrong with challenging someone or disagreeing with them but just do it in a TACTFUL manner. That was the problem with Farra Day. She was brilliant, but socially clueless. Rusty, we are all on the same team here, just talk to others the same way you want to be talked to and there won't be any problems.

Pamper and coddle and accept untruths? Why would I want someone to let me go on being wrong?

There are numerous posters on this forum who bring incorrect beliefs and get away with it because no one dares hurt them for fear of being tactless. These over-unity supporters are the most sensitive bunch because they have very little to stand on and they know it so they lash out.

Oh look at all the posts people have put out calling me all sorts of names! Look at BioFarmers attack. Does he get called out? No, he is one of the chosen. He is "nice".

Double standard. By your silence, you subscribe to the misguided positions on this forum hhocon. Your information and videos are spot on and clear, mixed in with this over-unity drivel that permeates this forum. You may not think much of it, but it hurts people.

I met a trucker at the market this summer passed. . . chatting in the check out line, it turns out he reads this forum. He was embittered. He had followed information, including yours hhocon, and had collected parts on Ebay and other sources. He built a system and installed it, with some mechanics help, on his diesel flatbed delivery truck. He had spent several hundred dollars he indicated. The system "didn't work" he said. He said his tank range had only gone up by "40 - 50" miles over his usual 400. He expected to double his range and maybe even someday "run on nothing but HHO". Sounds familiar? I told him to hold on a bit longer to his equipment as he was going to just dump it all. I convinced him that the economics of 40 extra miles was worth it, and his several hundred dollar investment would be paid off in a few months and then it becomes a savings that would be money in his pocket. We still keep in touch and he seems happier with the performance of his system even though he continues to consider this forum "bunk".

Unfulfilled expectations are killing our efforts. Much of it comes from the over-unity camp and the exaggerated claims others spew out. I choose not to tactfully stand aside.

[Madsceintist]

[QUOTE]:
As to technology, everyone will have to hold each other accountable. I am the first to acknowledge my lack of expertise in many fields and you will see me post little to nothing in those fields. I ask others to do the same. Mad steps over the line when he veers away from the automotive tech he is good at and makes claims that inflate peoples expectations. I do not dog his posts. Corrections in that field will have to come from other mechanics. I encourage them to join in as it is sorely needed on this forum.

A concerted effort is needed to move towards providing something that will "facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk". Over-unity and inflated claims detract from that effort. Forum members can produce effective HHO generators. We still must tackle the electronics integration. Then we will have to have industry step in and mass produce components to make this available to those who are not tinkerers.
:[QUOTE]

I do not veer away from my profession or the experience that I gain through my profession. I will not intentionally post something that I have not done. I will not intentionally post anything that I do not have experience in. I have posted things in which I have completed or are working on, and I post as such without misleading anyone. If I do not know, I admit to such without hesitation! I do not think that at any point that I have steered anyone to the belief that there is a magical over-unity in my design. There are many differences in each and every persons set-up and each will get a different result from there's. I have stated many times that the electronics and some physical alterations of the engine(depending on the car) are required, for even the basic use of HHO as this forum is primarily set forth to use. I do give people the information that I have not only came across, but also use effectively, and try to help others to decipher that same use in it's intended manor!

I do not have delusions or illusions of things that are not viable. I do not have beliefs that are not realistic, I believe what I see that works, especially when I myself can make it work !!!!! As far as you being a self appointed watch dog, SIT, STAY , and HUSH sometimes. A barking dog is really annoying ! If you do not recall I am not beyond recalling myself if I have missed something or just plain wrong. In this case, you are out of line to trash me when you can't prove me anymore a liar then a honest straight forward individual. My car and system aren't in use at the moment and as I have said, I will post a thread in the future of the system and car running on the system, in a short neat package so as to have it in one very short thread as opposed to a long drawn out one like they tend to get. I WILL NOT show my entire system, as that would be STUPID !! But all will be seen to be true and factual. Those who understand what I have already said several times will understand what is in my system and will be more than welcome to come view, ride, drive, and test how they like, and it doesn't result in damage.

As you will notice, I have not at one time tried to sell or claim to have something I will sell. I have mostly helped people in the way of Mechanical direction as with questions of need. I have shared MY experiences and what little knowledge that I have gained. Even if it wasn't in a lab or university of your liking. It is real world, on the road, high mile use. I would like to tell you to put that on your lathe and spin it, but this CRAP needs to cease and desist.

[RustyLugNut]

Huh, I'll be darned.. Perhaps you have a saving grace then. If that's truly the case then why not try delivering your wisdom and/or your skepticism of other members accomplishments with a bit (quite a bit) less of the sneery "I'm a professional and smarter/better than you, you don't understand squat." theme that comes through all too well in your posts. Understand that you are not the only one that receives PM's, and the ones I've received lately that complain about you is over 30%. From people that rarely complain. I'm done with this topic for now, respond or not as you see fit. However, I do reserve the right to light your butt up in the future upon observation of you behaving poorly toward my friends. That is all.

Is this YOUR forum? Is this you and your friends PERSONAL playground? Last I checked, it wasn't.

Many applaud my approach and the veracity of my arguments. Just because you and a few others don't is not going to change me.

"Light my butt up". That is a personal attack. Much the same way you attacked me via innuendo, allegorically and directly - calling me an ass. That reflects badly on you. People know who you are. I don't need to make any accusations in return.

"You are mistaken and wrong in claiming over - unity. Prove your device". That is an attack on the point of contention. If you can't answer the attack, say so. But bear the burden of making the claim in the first place without the ability to support it even with general principles.

Don't worry. Eventually I will tire of your sandbox and I will leave.