help with some issues !

[RustyLugNut]

closed loop as in a perpetual motion.. a bad word for these folks
interesting extreme used to dispel the idea of long lasting free energy, kinda of tactical ploy.. howbeit claims are made over the years for a self sustaining machine, i cant guarantee these things but neither can i dismiss them, because some payed off big energy types dismiss the very notion.
but when one tests these things and try to tell others, they them-self are put under the gun.

Otherwise, you would be rich as Midas.

And yes, you have to prove the system. Just because people say it is, doesn't make it so. And people have been saying so for a long time with NOTHING to show in any practical way.

And MadS still pretends he is a Scientist (note spelling).

He doesn't understand what closed loop means in this discussion. In essence, he compares HHO to gasoline. In either case, enclose your car with an imaginary bubble and if you have a perfect system, it will continue to run indefinitely. With HHO all you have to do is gather the condensed exhaust (H2O) and recycle it back into your generator and keep on chugging along! Gasoline needs air (oxygen) to oxidize, so our exhaust in a perfect combustion will be water and CO2. Recycle those exhaust gasses back into your engine and keep chugging along! Except, neither of those cases work as stated in the real world because of losses that are unavoidable or because we are extracting work OUT of the bubble. At which point, you will need more than perpetual motion, you will need over unity energy production.

For some reason, all of the proponents of OU seem to think it is the establishment who must prove their invention. It is only logical that the OU device must be proved to the establishment.

So have at it. Explain it. Build it. Prove it. Don't just say it.

[Madsceintist]

At no point have I claimed to be a "scientist", NOTE spelling !!!
It is a user name, LUG head !
So, in this imaginary bubble you pronounce, gasoline would run forever ???
"I" do not believe that to be so !!!
Your lacking what I said to accommodate your view.

As with gasoline you have to keep adding gasoline to keep the engine running...

As with water you have to keep adding water to keep the engine running...
And don't take this simple statement to the outer limits by saying "I" say you can run an engine directly on water. That would be the same as me saying that you can run a gasoline engine off of the trees and grass and dead animals before they are processed. GET IT !!!

The combination of HHO, water and the other needed processed inputs are what are required. You will eventually run out of your fuel as with gasoline, or any other fuel. You can by design-structure lesson the amount of refueling as by reclaiming some of your loss. I can't recall saying that you can reclaim 100% of the loss at any point.

Rusty;
You have said that water is an ash of "combustion" and the ash of "oxidation". I'm not the physicist here, but I believe your WRONG !
The ash of combustion would be what ever solids are formed from carbons in the fuels or the air(not only oxygen) that are detonated. Also the ash of oxidation would be the left over minerals(solids) of what ever was oxidized by the oxygen, as oxygen is the oxidizer !

[myoldyourgold]

Lets forget OU. Unless the definition is changed or some radical change in the laws of nature, ( not going to happen in my opinion but might be possible )so at the moment there is no such thing. There is renewable energy and energy that is hard to measure that can be harvested to look like OU. Like magnetism, gravity, and vibration ( molecules are not stationary). How to apply this to making more HHO for a given amp is what we should be working on.

Mad, Rusty might be thinking about this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#ixzz29ko1KRTw

THE PROCESS

Air is blown into a tower filled with a mist of sodium hydroxide solution. The carbon dioxide in the air reacts with some of the sodium hydroxide to form sodium carbonate.

This sodium carbonate is then electrolyzed to release the carbon dioxide, which is collected and stored. Pioneering British firm produces 'petrol from air' in breakthrough that could solve the world's energy crisis..

A dehumidifier condenses water out of the same air passed into the tower, with this condensed water then passed into an electrolyzer where it is split into hydrogen and oxygen. The carbon dioxide and hydrogen are reacted together to make a hydrocarbon mixture, with reaction conditions varied depending on the kind of fuel required.

The product can then be mixed with the same additives used in current fuels to ease starting, burn cleanly and avoid corrosion problems. Otherwise it can be blended directly with gasoline, diesel and aviation fuel. An interesting study.

I think you can use some of this in our process but involves messing with the EGR. (not legal even when the exhaust is cleaner !) I did a couple years of testing in this field and learned a number of things that even though my idea was not for this but to defeat the computer. Using some of that data I think there are more gains available by manipulating the EGR based on engine demand but not as currently done. When I get back I am going to go over all the data and see if I can come up with something with this in mind to test and prove.

[RustyLugNut]

At no point have I claimed to be a "scientist", NOTE spelling !!!
It is a user name, LUG head !
So, in this imaginary bubble you pronounce, gasoline would run forever ???
"I" do not believe that to be so !!!
Your lacking what I said to accommodate your view.

As with gasoline you have to keep adding gasoline to keep the engine running...

As with water you have to keep adding water to keep the engine running...
And don't take this simple statement to the outer limits by saying "I" say you can run an engine directly on water. That would be the same as me saying that you can run a gasoline engine off of the trees and grass and dead animals before they are processed. GET IT !!!

The combination of HHO, water and the other needed processed inputs are what are required. You will eventually run out of your fuel as with gasoline, or any other fuel. You can by design-structure lesson the amount of refueling as by reclaiming some of your loss. I can't recall saying that you can reclaim 100% of the loss at any point.

Rusty;
You have said that water is an ash of "combustion" and the ash of "oxidation". I'm not the physicist here, but I believe your WRONG !
The ash of combustion would be what ever solids are formed from carbons in the fuels or the air(not only oxygen) that are detonated. Also the ash of oxidation would be the left over minerals(solids) of what ever was oxidized by the oxygen, as oxygen is the oxidizer !

Please look up energy levels. "Ash" is a term not just for solids. It is a general term for elemental energy states that will not produce anymore energy within a reaction. It is also true for nuclear. It doesn't matter if it is a solid, gas or liquid. Water fits this description of ash. So does CO2. You think you are arguing against ME? You are arguing against nature and science. I am just restating what is common knowledge.

The parallel "bubble" mind experiments where to illustrate the absurdity of OU.
If you are able to grasp the complexities of your HHO system, you should be able to wrap you mind around mental exercises.

Oh, and by the way, I have a friend up at UC Berkley who has a modern computer controlled version of the age old gassifiers found in various places around the globe. He powers a gasoline engined Honda with it. Leaves, paper, coal etc. can be used to power his car. It drives pretty nice when he gets going. So, you can drive your car without gasoline or diesel. Just put in the "stuff" that makes up gasoline or diesel.

[RustyLugNut]

Lets forget OU. Unless the definition is changed or some radical change in the laws of nature, ( not going to happen in my opinion but might be possible )so at the moment there is no such thing. There is renewable energy and energy that is hard to measure that can be harvested to look like OU. Like magnetism, gravity, and vibration ( molecules are not stationary). How to apply this to making more HHO for a given amp is what we should be working on.

Mad, Rusty might be thinking about this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#ixzz29ko1KRTw

THE PROCESS

Air is blown into a tower filled with a mist of sodium hydroxide solution. The carbon dioxide in the air reacts with some of the sodium hydroxide to form sodium carbonate.

This sodium carbonate is then electrolyzed to release the carbon dioxide, which is collected and stored. Pioneering British firm produces 'petrol from air' in breakthrough that could solve the world's energy crisis..

A dehumidifier condenses water out of the same air passed into the tower, with this condensed water then passed into an electrolyzer where it is split into hydrogen and oxygen. The carbon dioxide and hydrogen are reacted together to make a hydrocarbon mixture, with reaction conditions varied depending on the kind of fuel required.

The product can then be mixed with the same additives used in current fuels to ease starting, burn cleanly and avoid corrosion problems. Otherwise it can be blended directly with gasoline, diesel and aviation fuel. An interesting study.

I think you can use some of this in our process but involves messing with the EGR. (not legal even when the exhaust is cleaner !) I did a couple years of testing in this field and learned a number of things that even though my idea was not for this but to defeat the computer. Using some of that data I think there are more gains available by manipulating the EGR based on engine demand but not as currently done. When I get back I am going to go over all the data and see if I can come up with something with this in mind to test and prove.

It is a good link but you can find their work reported in trade magazines for the last decade or two.

The problem is twofold. It needs tremendous electrical input to run. They eventually plan to use excess renewable energy that would otherwise be wasted.

You also need a concentrated CO2 source to be economical by any measure. The CO2 in the air is too sparse. They are looking at industrial exhausts as a possible source.

Scaling this down to something that runs on a car will be more than problematical. The CO2 is there for the taking from the exhaust stream of the ICE but you will still need prodigious amounts of electricity for your electrolysis.

[Madsceintist]

"" This discussion is going nowhere.""


Could not have said it any better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[myoldyourgold]

Scaling this down to something that runs on a car will be more than problematical. The CO2 is there for the taking from the exhaust stream of the ICE but you will still need prodigious amounts of electricity for your electrolysis.

This is not my idea but yours. Have no intention of doing anything like it. My point was to learn from then. How I use what I learn is yet to be tested and so will not be discussing it until it is. Any slight improvement that is not cost prohibitive is worth investigating.

[RustyLugNut]

This is not my idea but yours. Have no intention of doing anything like it. My point was to learn from then. How I use what I learn is yet to be tested and so will not be discussing it until it is. Any slight improvement that is not cost prohibitive is worth investigating.

You implied something of the sort might be going on with the HHO setups that some people on here are running. I gave my opinion. That is all.

Good luck with your research.

[RustyLugNut]

"" This discussion is going nowhere.""


Could not have said it any better !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

. . . but you didn't . . .

[Madsceintist]

. . . but you didn't . . .

Better................

You Rusty have less use on here then anyone. Your more like the drugs that cause death, then the disease that the drug was for(if you can understand that)! So this thread went from a valid question to your typical bashing of the users.
I have an experiment for you Rusty, See if you can survive as bait on a whaling vessel !