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Thread: KOH mix strength, amps versus production

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    28

    KOH mix strength, amps versus production

    Hello,
    I have built a new cell that is a combination of a dry cell and a wet cell.

    I tried using .040" pvc gaskets, but ran into leaks, and internal arcing. So I disassembled the cell to start over with better materials.

    I will be using 1/8" EPDM gaskets, and EPDM plates or something akin to it next time.

    But what Im trying to figure out, is the best mix strength for my cell once I get it put back together. I typically run 3tspns per gallon of KOH.

    With that my 5N3 cell with 6 x 7" plates gave me 18 seconds on a 500ml bottle, @ 22amps, and 13 seconds @ 32amps. This was 13 vdc, and 50 degree electrolyte.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1MM...ature=youtu.be

    Does adding to the strength of the electrolyte increase production in direct correlation to the amp draw? Im wanting to make a heater with this cell.
    In the above mentioned configuration, I was able to produce a 2 to 3 inch flame and burn some pop cans with my #2 hoke jewelers tipped torch.

    Ideally Ill be running a couple of small torch tips heating re-boiler type heat exchangers and passing them through CPU cooling radiators.
    Think of it like a big Mr. Coffee maker that produces heat rather than coffee.

    I'd like to know if anyone has come up with a standard on KOH mix strength. This would help me in the design to know what amperage, to KOH mix strength would produce the best. My target goal is to run this under 400watts, and less than 30 amps while at full operating temp.

    Any help here?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Diego, California.
    Posts
    337

    So . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by ydeardorff View Post
    Hello,
    I have built a new cell that is a combination of a dry cell and a wet cell.

    I tried using .040" pvc gaskets, but ran into leaks, and internal arcing. So I disassembled the cell to start over with better materials.

    I will be using 1/8" EPDM gaskets, and EPDM plates or something akin to it next time.

    But what Im trying to figure out, is the best mix strength for my cell once I get it put back together. I typically run 3tspns per gallon of KOH.

    With that my 5N3 cell with 6 x 7" plates gave me 18 seconds on a 500ml bottle, @ 22amps, and 13 seconds @ 32amps. This was 13 vdc, and 50 degree electrolyte.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn1MM...ature=youtu.be

    Does adding to the strength of the electrolyte increase production in direct correlation to the amp draw? Im wanting to make a heater with this cell.
    In the above mentioned configuration, I was able to produce a 2 to 3 inch flame and burn some pop cans with my #2 hoke jewelers tipped torch.

    Ideally Ill be running a couple of small torch tips heating re-boiler type heat exchangers and passing them through CPU cooling radiators.
    Think of it like a big Mr. Coffee maker that produces heat rather than coffee.

    I'd like to know if anyone has come up with a standard on KOH mix strength. This would help me in the design to know what amperage, to KOH mix strength would produce the best. My target goal is to run this under 400watts, and less than 30 amps while at full operating temp.

    Any help here?
    Let me understand what you are attempting to do here.

    You want to produce HHO, burn it to heat a liquid then transfer the heat through radiators?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    28
    Yes.

    For this project I dont need monster flames, only enough to heat the liquid in hand made heat exchangers.

    The design uses all of the heat produced from the power supply, generator, and the flame(s).

    I have small high temp water pumps to circulate the coolant through the heat exchanger and radiators. The natural thermosiphoning effect will pump the liquid anyway, but the 1LPM pump will just help it move a touch faster.

    The heat from the following sources will be used:

    Computer power supply
    HHO Generator
    2 flame to liquid heat exchangers
    1 fluid to fluid heat exchanger
    Left over heat from the flame

    All of this will be directed from outside air, into the plenum to be exited as heat. So this doesn't waste any heat source within the unit.

    The hoke jewelers torch tips offer me a stable, usable flame that is small and can run on 1.5 lpm or less.


    There has to be a "sweet spot" on the electrolyte mixture. I know every electrolysis cell is different. But I would hope that with all the collective years of knowledge on this forum, that someone would have figured that out.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Diego, California.
    Posts
    337

    So . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by ydeardorff View Post
    Yes.

    For this project I dont need monster flames, only enough to heat the liquid in hand made heat exchangers.

    The design uses all of the heat produced from the power supply, generator, and the flame(s).

    I have small high temp water pumps to circulate the coolant through the heat exchanger and radiators. The natural thermosiphoning effect will pump the liquid anyway, but the 1LPM pump will just help it move a touch faster.

    The heat from the following sources will be used:

    Computer power supply
    HHO Generator
    2 flame to liquid heat exchangers
    1 fluid to fluid heat exchanger
    Left over heat from the flame

    All of this will be directed from outside air, into the plenum to be exited as heat. So this doesn't waste any heat source within the unit.

    The hoke jewelers torch tips offer me a stable, usable flame that is small and can run on 1.5 lpm or less.


    There has to be a "sweet spot" on the electrolyte mixture. I know every electrolysis cell is different. But I would hope that with all the collective years of knowledge on this forum, that someone would have figured that out.
    . . . your ultimate goal is to heat air. If I have read things correctly.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    28
    Yes it is.

    Im not setting any goals like heating my whole home or nothing. Im seeing what can be done with my design. The pumps despite only being 1 lpm may be too much and the coolant may not get warm enough.

    I made my copper 1/4" OD coil over a 3/4" copper pipe. I then ran the output to the input on the coil as a big loop. Though it was nothing to get excited about, the coolant got warm pretty quickly (about 5 minutes) with a flame a little longer than the tip of your finger.

    Should this design work even decently, my hope is to have it be a maintainer of the heat in the house. Not unrealistically heat the whole home with it. Something I can use to keep the house from dropping into the 40's or 50's at night.

    But Im also aware that electrolyte strength should be relative to the plate gaps within the cell. So a cell with 1/16" gaps would need less electrolyte strength than a cell with 1/8" gaps.
    But what is the optimum KOH mixture strength in distilled water?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Diego, California.
    Posts
    337

    I am not sure where you are in your engineering courses.

    Quote Originally Posted by ydeardorff View Post
    Yes it is.

    Im not setting any goals like heating my whole home or nothing. Im seeing what can be done with my design. The pumps despite only being 1 lpm may be too much and the coolant may not get warm enough.

    I made my copper 1/4" OD coil over a 3/4" copper pipe. I then ran the output to the input on the coil as a big loop. Though it was nothing to get excited about, the coolant got warm pretty quickly (about 5 minutes) with a flame a little longer than the tip of your finger.

    Should this design work even decently, my hope is to have it be a maintainer of the heat in the house. Not unrealistically heat the whole home with it. Something I can use to keep the house from dropping into the 40's or 50's at night.

    But Im also aware that electrolyte strength should be relative to the plate gaps within the cell. So a cell with 1/16" gaps would need less electrolyte strength than a cell with 1/8" gaps.
    But what is the optimum KOH mixture strength in distilled water?
    But, you must realize the efficiency losses stack up through each step in your system.

    Take the power out of the wall, run it through a switching power supply at about 90% efficiency, into an electrolysis generator that is around 60% efficient if we are lucky and into a heat exchange system that might transfer 70% of the heat and . . . you will be lucky to get 1/3 of your energy out as heat.

    Look up in-floor radiant heat and realize that is one of the most efficient forms of heat distribution. Then create your hot water from an energy source that is efficient, low cost or renewable. There is another thread on here where BioFarmer and others have links to people running burners with waste motor oil, and other waste streams.

    I would suggest looking in the direction of augmenting the WMO burn with HHO. That is where my heating experiments are going. I am blessed with two homes - one along the beach here in semi-tropical San Diego and the other looking up at the ski slopes in Southern California's mountains. The beach home has an awesomely efficient central heat exchange unit - that we rarely if ever use. The much older mountain home has a fireplace. I have resource streams of both WVO ( waste vegetable oil) and WMO (waste motor oil) with which I would like to heat my house and outbuilding shop site.
    My powered Kerosene heater does well with Diesel #2, but smokes badly on well filtered and centrifuged WMO. I am going to probably need to heat the oil and augment the combustion - it keeps tripping the CO alarm. My goal is to get it to run so clean it will not trip the CO alarm.

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