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Thread: NEED HELP and EXPLANATIONS

  1. Default NEED HELP and EXPLANATIONS

    Decide to install HHO system. Spend 2 years researching and gathering information.

    All experiments were done without any EFI/ERIE installations.

    Purchased my first 9 plate generator (Meyer's Cell type) from e-Bay.

    All results were UNPLEASANT.

    First try was with 11 plate generator. Changes were: the RPM drop from 750 rpm on gasoline only to 350 rpm on gasoline plus BROWNS Gas. I disconnected the system from car current and got everything back to original in couple of hours.

    Second try was with same gen and with the same result.

    Third try was done using the 25 plate HHO generator.
    First what I did, I bought the ELM 327 Vgate OBD2 Bluetooth device for Android phones to have visible all numbers of engine data and parameters from ECU. Than I mounted HHO system (25 plates generator without FS2 VOLO performance chip) in my 2003 Mazda protege 2.0 and start driving, monitoring, and obtaining data "on demand". I thought that the RPM drop was regarding the new data from sensors, and ECU was adjusting the amount of gasoline due to KNOCK sensor (detonation) data. That is why I purchased the bigger generator that produces higher volumes of HHO gas on idles to support regular 700-750 idle RPM.
    CHANGES WERE HORRIBLE AND UNPLEASANT.
    Now I think that additional unused oxygen in the exhaust gases was in charge of tremendous increase of gas spend ( it doubled compare to the regular drive on the gasoline only) after a 6-10 days of constant use of the HHO as a supplement. In addition to the horrible fuel economy, ECU (using the new data from O2 and Knock sensors) doubled the RPMs in idle (I believe ECU tried to correct the data from O2 and knock sensors by enriching the combustion mixture with gasoline to decrease the free oxygen in exhaust).
    To get everything back to normal, I disconnected the HHO from the car current. It took 4 days to get back all the "new" "unpleasant" changes. Just today afternoon I got everything back to original numbers. I have started measuring numbers right before I start to drive with HHO.

    This is my current experience. That is why so many questions are being asked. I really want buy your FS2 VOLO performance chip for HHO. Please, provide more explanations and answer to me. I already spend bit more than $500 for the system, and do not want to spend more if it not really work. With all the respect to you and your product, which I really want to buy, I need some more knowledge about how the FS2 full the sensors, how it measures the HHOgas flow, how it adjust the gas/air ratio, and some more. I would be really pleased if you are able to answer all of them. I chat with you about a year ago from now, or so. I want to get a final positive results from this project.

    If anybody face with similar problems, or know what is going on and how to get needed results (fuel efficiency instead of fuel loss), please HELP.

    QUESTIONS
    Who and how calibrate the VOLO chip in accordance to the min/max HHO generator flow?
    How could I know the maximum output of the HHO gen (I know its minimum - 2 lpm, but the max depend on amps, electrolyte concentration and many other things)?
    How could HHO be measured dynamically, if there is no any sensor in the car that measure the HHO gas amount produced?
    Whether the chip must be installed before HHO system installation (because the HHO gas without the chip leads to big changes in many engine processes, such as timing advance, gas-air mixture ratio, etc.

    Being new to this forum, I am seeking for help, answers and future productive information share with all members of the forum.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    San Diego, California.
    Posts
    337

    Default What you are experiencing is not unusual.

    Modern OBD II gasoline powered automobiles are probably the most complex electro-mechanical item in your possession - and you have decided to hack it.

    First things first: what is the current draw of your electrolysis generator?

    Second: what is the current (amperage) delivery curve of your cars alternator?

    A voltage drop can affect several sub-systems on your car. The ECU can run with somewhat low voltage. However, other sub-systems will struggle. Find out your power balance first.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Mississauga, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7

    Default

    "Decide to install HHO system. Spend 2 years researching and gathering information.

    All experiments were done without any EFI/ERIE installations."

    ...

    "Now I think that additional unused oxygen in the exhaust gases was in charge of tremendous increase of gas spend"

    The research you did should have told you that.

    As RustLugNut mentioned, fuel delivery for modern engines is electronically controlled for power, fuel economy, and exhaust emissions.(vs RPM, loading, air temperature, engine temperature, etc.)

    If you are going to introduce a different gas (or gasses) into the formula there will be some changes you will have to make so that the engine controls will respond in the direction you want.

    In the last 31 years, emission controls and fuel economy were the driving designs for auto engines.

    The oxygen sensor plays a significant part of the fuel / air mix ratio. It has been known to compensate for a 20% shift in MAF signal.

    That is why the first signal that I would modify to work with "HHO" would be the oxygen sensor signal.

    Just my opinion, of course.


  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by almaghm View Post
    Decide to install HHO system. Spend 2 years researching and gathering information.

    All experiments were done without any EFI/ERIE installations.

    Purchased my first 9 plate generator (Meyer's Cell type) from e-Bay.

    All results were UNPLEASANT.

    First try was with 11 plate generator. Changes were: the RPM drop from 750 rpm on gasoline only to 350 rpm on gasoline plus BROWNS Gas. I disconnected the system from car current and got everything back to original in couple of hours.

    Second try was with same gen and with the same result.

    Third try was done using the 25 plate HHO generator.
    First what I did, I bought the ELM 327 Vgate OBD2 Bluetooth device for Android phones to have visible all numbers of engine data and parameters from ECU. Than I mounted HHO system (25 plates generator without FS2 VOLO performance chip) in my 2003 Mazda protege 2.0 and start driving, monitoring, and obtaining data "on demand". I thought that the RPM drop was regarding the new data from sensors, and ECU was adjusting the amount of gasoline due to KNOCK sensor (detonation) data. That is why I purchased the bigger generator that produces higher volumes of HHO gas on idles to support regular 700-750 idle RPM.
    CHANGES WERE HORRIBLE AND UNPLEASANT.
    Now I think that additional unused oxygen in the exhaust gases was in charge of tremendous increase of gas spend ( it doubled compare to the regular drive on the gasoline only) after a 6-10 days of constant use of the HHO as a supplement. In addition to the horrible fuel economy, ECU (using the new data from O2 and Knock sensors) doubled the RPMs in idle (I believe ECU tried to correct the data from O2 and knock sensors by enriching the combustion mixture with gasoline to decrease the free oxygen in exhaust).
    To get everything back to normal, I disconnected the HHO from the car current. It took 4 days to get back all the "new" "unpleasant" changes. Just today afternoon I got everything back to original numbers. I have started measuring numbers right before I start to drive with HHO.

    This is my current experience. That is why so many questions are being asked. I really want buy your FS2 VOLO performance chip for HHO. Please, provide more explanations and answer to me. I already spend bit more than $500 for the system, and do not want to spend more if it not really work. With all the respect to you and your product, which I really want to buy, I need some more knowledge about how the FS2 full the sensors, how it measures the HHOgas flow, how it adjust the gas/air ratio, and some more. I would be really pleased if you are able to answer all of them. I chat with you about a year ago from now, or so. I want to get a final positive results from this project.

    If anybody face with similar problems, or know what is going on and how to get needed results (fuel efficiency instead of fuel loss), please HELP.

    QUESTIONS
    Who and how calibrate the VOLO chip in accordance to the min/max HHO generator flow?
    How could I know the maximum output of the HHO gen (I know its minimum - 2 lpm, but the max depend on amps, electrolyte concentration and many other things)?
    How could HHO be measured dynamically, if there is no any sensor in the car that measure the HHO gas amount produced?
    Whether the chip must be installed before HHO system installation (because the HHO gas without the chip leads to big changes in many engine processes, such as timing advance, gas-air mixture ratio, etc.

    Being new to this forum, I am seeking for help, answers and future productive information share with all members of the forum.
    above problem to solve is not to use hydrogen generator that need EFIE or VOLO chip, use hydrogen generator that use pure nickel plate & new design reservoir/bubbler from silicone valley,that do not need EFIE & VOLO chip,use map enhancer only.

  5. #5

    Default

    Modern OBD II fuel operated vehicles are probably the most complicated electro -mechanical product in your ownership - and you have chosen to crack it.

  6. Default

    First to answer your questions:

    Volo chips cant be tuned, theyre horrible. I returned mine long ago.
    Stick with an EFIE and other sensor trickery.

    rule of thumb is half the displacement of your engine in liters per minute for HHO production. No more than that, otherwise you will have issues. For your engine you should only be producing 1lpm at the most. Id recommend a little less. Thats 10 to 15 amps of electricity with a good cell.

    to measure the HHO output I would correspond your amperage to hho production. If you have a PWM, take advantage of it, if not then use your electrolyte. Do a water displacement test and record the amount produced at different amps or electrolyte concentration. Then use that to determine how much is produced when driving.

    and see the info on the ecu and fuel trim


    So a few things...

    RPM DROP:
    RPM drop seems like theres another issue. My first thought is that because of the amount of HHO being produced the ecu really thinks theres too much o2, the cars running really lean and is flooding the engine with gas, causing less power and a low rpm.
    Second theory- Was actual electrolyte/water mix being sucked into the engine rather than the HHO itself?
    It could be as simple as that your hho inlet is directly next to the idle air control valve, messing with idle. If so, place it farther away to allow outside air to mix in.

    Troubleshooting first starts with checking to see if your cell is producing hho and how much. Water displacement test. Also look for electrolyte residue near or on the throttle plate.

    RPM drop could also be from an increased electrical load, taking away from your spark or even sensors. I recommend tuning your car up with a few things such as adding electrical grounds before installing the system.

    ECU:
    Heres the important part if you have not done so
    Reset your long and short term fuel trim after installing everything by disconnecting the battery for half an hour. It appears from the period it takes to 'reverse' the issues caused, that the ECU isnt being reset and has to go through several drive cycles to adjust by itself.

    The bluetooth obd reader is a great thing to have. I have one, its always plugged in. Go into the app store and buy "torque", its inexpensive and priceless. Use it to monitor your fuel trim. Long term Fuel trim should be close to 0 but not at 0. Within +/- 10%. Short term should swap back and forth. Use this as a tool when your putting in the correct amount of HHO in your engine and leaning out your engine using the EFIE and other sensor pots.

    You need to fool your o2 sensor first. In order to keep the gains you must make intake and temp sensors correspond with what the o2 sensor reads, otherwise the ECU will see an issue and ignore the sensors.
    Last edited by sjrobinson; 06-24-2013 at 03:42 AM.

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