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Thread: An interesting point of view on O2 sensor manipulation

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    An interesting point of view on O2 sensor manipulation

    I was back browsing through the files on the yahoo watercar group today and found another doc on working with the O2 sensor. It basically states that an EFIE is overkill and even some reasons as to why they sometimes cause hell with the check engine light.

    Would definitely be interested in anyone's opinions on this and any ideas for how such a circuit could be built?

    Apologies for the formatting, the original file is non-linkable and I had to convert it from doc to txt to fit the upload size limit.

    Russ.
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  2. #2
    JimDShendo Guest

    O2 Science

    Thanks for that info. This subject is the most plaguing.

    I'm going to hook up a 0-2 VDC voltmeter to my dash so I can read my O2's behavior while driving. I live in a mountainous area, so I don't want to screw up with choosing a bad 'standard' voltage.

    I found a little meter in the Allied Electronics catalog. The model number is SP 400-blue. It's listed for $32.36. With a couple extra resistors, you can get it to accuratly read the 0-2 VDC range. I'll have a POT to adjust the O2 reading to what I want...while seeing it.

    Good idea?

  3. #3
    Keith's Garage Guest
    Hooking up a voltmeter to watch the O2 might be a little confusing, considering how fast the switch rate is. The biggest thing people need to remember is that the O2 sensor is just a tattle tell sensor. It's not a bad idea to enhance the 02 signal, but you should also manipulate a demand sensor like the MAP/ MAF.

    Another thing is that in order to tell the computer the motor is running rich (that way the computer leans the motor out) the 02 sensor voltage is high not low. So, just using a potentiometer will not work.

  4. #4
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    Can't this idiot be banned by IP address range or something?
    2006 Dodge Ram 4.7L - 16.5 mpg stock
    My thread Painless Experiment in HHO

  5. #5
    Jaxom Guest
    That paper has some good information in it, but some bad information as well. The explanation about why EFIE's sometimes set a check engine light makes perfect sense, but they're a little bit off on their ideas of how the PCM monitors the O2 sensors, and how the fuel trim feedback loop works.

    " In looking for Horsepower, the O2 signal is fixed to whatever level the tuner needs,by using a fixed resistance in the early O2 models,or a fixed voltage signal in the later O2 models"

    This is crap. Sending a fixed signal to the PCM in place of an O2 signal will do more harm than good. The PCM expects to see a signal switching back and forth from ~.2-.8v, and if it doesn't see that switching signal it will decide that the O2 is bad and set the appropriate trouble code. Without the O2 signal, the PCM will use a default fuel curve, which may be too rich or too lean for the current conoditions. If the fixed O2 signal is low, the PCM will increase the injector pulsewidth until it reaches the max. allowed in the programming. The converse is also true. Unless the O2 signal changes in response to the fueling changes, the system will either max out lean or max out rich. This is true for nearly all closed-loop fuel control systems.

    Also, the PCM doesn't just add or subtract fuel based on the O2 voltage. There is a very complex set of algorythms that the PCM uses to calculate the injector pulse width based on a number of engine parameters. I could write chapters on the O2 feedback PID (proportional, integrative, and derivative) controls alone, without even brushing against the MAP, MAF, CTS, IAT, Barometric pressure, RPM, Accel. Enrichment, Decel. Enleanment, Highway mode spark and fuel control, Power Enrichment (a.k.a. wide open throttle,) Overheat mode, Startup Enrichment, and a number of other parameters.

    I hate it when bad information like this gets circulated.

  6. #6
    SamB52 Guest

    Talking Please, write the chapters!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxom View Post
    That paper has some good information in it, but some bad information as well. The explanation about why EFIE's sometimes set a check engine light makes perfect sense, but they're a little bit off on their ideas of how the PCM monitors the O2 sensors, and how the fuel trim feedback loop works.

    " In looking for Horsepower, the O2 signal is fixed to whatever level the tuner needs,by using a fixed resistance in the early O2 models,or a fixed voltage signal in the later O2 models"

    This is crap. Sending a fixed signal to the PCM in place of an O2 signal will do more harm than good. The PCM expects to see a signal switching back and forth from ~.2-.8v, and if it doesn't see that switching signal it will decide that the O2 is bad and set the appropriate trouble code. Without the O2 signal, the PCM will use a default fuel curve, which may be too rich or too lean for the current conoditions. If the fixed O2 signal is low, the PCM will increase the injector pulsewidth until it reaches the max. allowed in the programming. The converse is also true. Unless the O2 signal changes in response to the fueling changes, the system will either max out lean or max out rich. This is true for nearly all closed-loop fuel control systems.

    Also, the PCM doesn't just add or subtract fuel based on the O2 voltage. There is a very complex set of algorythms that the PCM uses to calculate the injector pulse width based on a number of engine parameters. I could write chapters on the O2 feedback PID (proportional, integrative, and derivative) controls alone, without even brushing against the MAP, MAF, CTS, IAT, Barometric pressure, RPM, Accel. Enrichment, Decel. Enleanment, Highway mode spark and fuel control, Power Enrichment (a.k.a. wide open throttle,) Overheat mode, Startup Enrichment, and a number of other parameters.

    I hate it when bad information like this gets circulated.
    Man, I wish you'd write the chapters for us lay people. I have a Jeep Hemi that will not budge on its mileage while all these Dodge Hemis around me are going from 12 mpg to 25mpg...I have contacted KRC performance about hho fuel and ignition maps using the SCTFlash hardware. They have experience with all sorts of engine manipulations, including nitrous, which may have similar impact to hho in terms of more rapid and complete combustion. One of the owners of KRC put hho on his wife's 5.8 liter Caravan and she's getting 25 mpg, too.
    Anyway, we're glad you're here, and welcome any clues you can give us.
    BTW, are you using hho, and if so, on what vehicle?
    Thanks

  7. #7
    singnpreacher Guest

    Check engine light and O2 sensor

    Hi, everyone! I have a 2006 Ford Econoline E350 van. I don't know if the three HHO generators I installed are giving me any change in mileage or not, but have a big trip this Saturday.

    My worry is that my engine light is on, and I'm really hoping I didn't royally mess something up in my engine! I installed everything but the O2 sensor extenders on Saturday, and then installed two extenders on each of my two O2 sensors Tuesday afternoon. My wife says the light came on while she was driving yesterday. It hasn't gone off yet.

    Should I try removing the extenders to see if the light goes off? I'm told that the HHO system won't work without the extenders.

    What I'd really love is for someone to reassure me that my engine light isn't telling me that I've messed up my van!

    Thanks!

  8. #8
    Westcoastrocks Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by singnpreacher View Post
    Hi, everyone! I have a 2006 Ford Econoline E350 van. I don't know if the three HHO generators I installed are giving me any change in mileage or not, but have a big trip this Saturday.

    My worry is that my engine light is on, and I'm really hoping I didn't royally mess something up in my engine! I installed everything but the O2 sensor extenders on Saturday, and then installed two extenders on each of my two O2 sensors Tuesday afternoon. My wife says the light came on while she was driving yesterday. It hasn't gone off yet.

    Should I try removing the extenders to see if the light goes off? I'm told that the HHO system won't work without the extenders.

    What I'd really love is for someone to reassure me that my engine light isn't telling me that I've messed up my van!

    Thanks!
    When i was installing my HHo gas output into my air intake, I had to remove the MAF sensor on the air intake cause it was in the way. I forgot to put it back on and the same thing happen to me. The first time i ever started my truck while running HHO gas and the engine light came on. Scared the crap out of me! So maybe beings your O2 sensors are farther away now your engine thinks that they are not there.

  9. #9
    singnpreacher Guest

    Remove a couple extenders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Westcoastrocks View Post
    When i was installing my HHo gas output into my air intake, I had to remove the MAF sensor on the air intake cause it was in the way. I forgot to put it back on and the same thing happen to me. The first time i ever started my truck while running HHO gas and the engine light came on. Scared the crap out of me! So maybe beings your O2 sensors are farther away now your engine thinks that they are not there.
    Thanks for the reply! I never had to remove my MAF sensor, BUT, I got a MAF sensor enhancer with the HHO kit I bought on eBay. I'm pretty sure I have that installed correctly, though.

    So, do you think I ought to try just having one O2 sensor extender on each sensor?

    Thanks!

  10. #10
    Omega Guest
    When I installed my O2 extender my check engine light came on... it wasn't because the sensor was effected, I had hurried too much and forgot to plug it back in

    In my experience, a check engine light will not go out by itself. I reset mine with a code reader I've got. You can get the computer to reset by unhooking the battery hot lead for a few minutes and the computer will "forget" that a code was set.

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