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Thread: marine HHO idea

  1. Default marine HHO idea

    Hi all,
    Low speed marine diesels on ocean going ships use more fuel than all the land based diesel applications combined. It is fuel use on a really huge scale. Coming up with a way to reduce use 30% would have a big economic and environmental impact.

    This monograph, http://www.hho-research.org/wp15.pdf gives details of an approach for doing that.

    I am an independent researcher. I would be interested if someone could vet the math found on a spreadsheet at: http://www.hho-research.org/docs/xls...ti_model3.xlsx Will I pay for it? Well, we would have to discuss it.

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    Default

    I could vet the math but I am already a paid researcher in this very field and it would be a conflict of interest. Interesting reading none the less.

  3. Default

    Thanks for the comment anyway. I rather had in mind an engineering student. Just wanted a brief affidavit stating that all the math is correct and follows a consistent line of reasoning. It could also have a disclaimer saying that it neither confirms nor denies the practical application of the concept. I have a sort checklist of the items that I want verified. Not many people look at the spreadsheets. A security warning had been coming up on attempting to access them. I got a security certificate so that issue has been resolved, hopefully. The explanation of the math in the low speed diesel pdf and the affidavit might encourage more people to actually look at the calculations.

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    Default Your concept is workable though some assumptions would make it a non starter.

    Quote Originally Posted by hhoresearch View Post
    Thanks for the comment anyway. I rather had in mind an engineering student. Just wanted a brief affidavit stating that all the math is correct and follows a consistent line of reasoning. It could also have a disclaimer saying that it neither confirms nor denies the practical application of the concept. I have a sort checklist of the items that I want verified. Not many people look at the spreadsheets. A security warning had been coming up on attempting to access them. I got a security certificate so that issue has been resolved, hopefully. The explanation of the math in the low speed diesel pdf and the affidavit might encourage more people to actually look at the calculations.
    You are correct in assuming the dynamics of a Low Speed Diesel (LSD) are different than those of the aforementioned Detroit Diesel Class 8 tractor engine which is a high speed engine and benefits more from HHO addition than the LSD. Low speed diesels already have a thermal efficiency of 52% and climbing so additional gains via de-rating and HHO addition will net very small gains. Reworking the drive, as you suggest, would not be worth the effort as the return on investment would be too long.

    My son works in the ship building trades here in San Diego and I have acquaintances who engineer the drives. Retrofit is one thing, cutting open the ship to re-engine is another thing entirely and is almost never done. Hulls are a commodity who's life is factored into the ships intended use. Designing a ship to be fuel efficient from the start is the best path to take. Many ships now use natural gas as a main fuel to reduce carbon footprint and to take advantage of the low natural gas prices here in the Americas. Your system would compete directly against these designs.

    One area there could be some gains is in retrofitting the base engine to an over expanding design (Atkinson etc.). Thus a slower transit speed with a propeller change and a valving change could net up to 60% thermal efficiency. Again, your idea will have to compete with this idea which is already in the works for testing and possible inclusion into new designs.

    In any case, your idea will have to compete against market solutions which are already out there.

  5. Default

    Thanks for the extensive and thoughtful comment. Thoughts like these have gone through my head already. It seems very significant to me that a spike in the increase occurs at about 90% of optimal baseline. I have some road trial data on OTR Class 8 vehicles that somewhat backs that up. Many will average about 15% increase, but then there are occasional outliers that bump up to 30% or more. But I wonder if I am making a bigger deal about it then it really is.

    You are right that the LSD has a very different energy budget profile from a high speed tractor engine, and nobody has ever studied much the effect of HHO on the energy budget. Where is that extra output being drawn from? The exhaust or the waste heat or something else? It is rather interesting in the UNOH test data that the exhaust temperature actually increased for both the 32 and 46 amp tests.

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    Default This is a good discussion and I appreciate your lucid arguments.

    I am quite sure you are familiar with the classic division of energy distribution in a 4 cycle Otto engine. One third of the thermal energy goes to making actual power while a third is lost to friction/cooling and another to the exhaust. Spark ignited engines (SI) lose more to cooling but it is still a good rule of thumb .

    I will not entertain the notion that HHO has "magical" properties. The augmentation of the combustion profile is all the addition of HHO can and will do. With that said, what can HHO do? In a SI engine, the contraction of the combustion curve results in less thermal loss to the cooling system and more torque production for the same amount of fuel. This slides the losses into the power production side resulting in a benefit. Older engines also have a measurable loss of combustion energy in the form of high emissions output. Unburned HC and CO are lost energy potential and the addition of HHO almost always results in the mitigation or elimination of these pollutants.

    I cannot divulge much about diesel combustion theory , but this much I can say, HHO does much the same to a compression ignition (CI) engine as you would find in a SI engine - but for different reasons. The contraction of the pressure curve results in greater efficiency due to more pressure under advantageous crank angles and reduced losses to the cooling and exhaust. However, as CI engines get larger and slower, there is less loss to the cooling/friction portion as well as losses to the exhaust/emissions portion. This is reflected in the increasing thermal efficiencies (TE) of diesels where a normally aspirated Cummins 3.9L 4BT might have a 38% TE and a turbocharged 5.9L 6BT might get 42% TE and a larger 15L ISB might reach 45% TE. Large ocean going diesels are often measured at 52% TE and above. You referenced this when you referenced Haywood and so I am quite sure you understand that HHO will help less in these large engines as the major energy loss that is left to improve upon will be the exhaust energy - and that loss is increasingly minimized in large diesels.

  7. Post

    well, the marine diesel idea was getting a lot of hits, so I was trying to promote it but overall, it is a throw away idea. After researching HHO since at least 2011, I have concluded that if one really wants to do something and raise venture capital, then at some point a physical demonstration of actual equipment is necessary. What I am finding out is that getting good results is one thing, reproducing them is another matter.

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    Default An understanding of the process is also needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by hhoresearch View Post
    well, the marine diesel idea was getting a lot of hits, so I was trying to promote it but overall, it is a throw away idea. After researching HHO since at least 2011, I have concluded that if one really wants to do something and raise venture capital, then at some point a physical demonstration of actual equipment is necessary. What I am finding out is that getting good results is one thing, reproducing them is another matter.
    You cannot make theoretical extrapolations of performance if you don't know how things work. I have read your page and am impressed with your efforts at understanding HHO effects. However, without understanding how it interacts in combustion leaves you with a big hole in your map. I helped with a private study almost two decades ago and at the end, the conclusion was that electrolytically produced hydrogen was interesting and beneficial but was unable to provide the performance needed to be an economic success. You touched on the calculations on your page.

    That being said, I do enjoy the efforts many tinkerers around the world have provided in producing working HHO systems and applying them to various uses.

  9. Default How it works vs. why it works

    I agree absolutely. Putting together some quantitative understanding of how it works is exactly what I have have been trying to do. As to why it works, that's another question. But there are ways of attacking that.

    I figure, it is kind of like gravity. We know a lot about how it works. And that's good to know. You can do moon shots, GPS satellites, etc. But why does it work? What exactly is it? That remains an enigma of modern physics.

  10. Default essay on economics and validation

    I have been thinking of doing an essay or blog that addresses the question: If HHO really works, wouldn't big companies be working on it? Now I have not researched passenger cars much. All my research has been on Class 8 trucks, so by "big companies", I mean Cummins, Detroit Diesel, Volvo Daimler, etc. Earlier this year, I was going to go down to Mid-America Truck Show in Louisville Ky with a quick presentation on my tablet and actually ask some "big company" people about this, but I had to do training so I cancelled the reservations.

    But I would ask now, most truck operators track their fuel costs pretty carefully. Let's say a guy has 3 month fuel logs from before and after installation of a unit on his rig and he is quite certain that after installation his costs went down at least 15%. And I do know of actual examples of this. I have done t-tests on the data sets and the p-values were well below 0.001. If you don't know what that means then never mind, just forget I mentioned it.

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