I would love to buy that cell for my other vehicles. But buying 100 at a time that is just to costly. What is the price that you sell them individually?
I would love to buy that cell for my other vehicles. But buying 100 at a time that is just to costly. What is the price that you sell them individually?
Administrator
I saw the pix,
It looks to me that when he was sanding or assembling, some of the neutrals got just enough out of shape that they are nearly touching...even close to the electrodes...
Maybe its not so important that they be that close when not in water and vibrating (such as a car does when the engine is running) but I would think that the plates would be much safer if the gaps were consistant, I mean after all, if you are going to have close tolerances thats good, but too close can be a risky hazard.
Perhaps larger radius washers, a thicker gauge material, or even more precautions and care in assembly would better the design.
Im not trying to down your products, im just making suggestions based on my observations.
I would like to say that Dane and co2 cutter should stop stomping on eachother. No one gets a good reputation by being argumentive. If you both have items for sale thats good, but please remember that your potential customers will likely read all of your threads....
"You don't always have to know ALL the answers, but you do need to know where to find them."
Senior Member
I agree, as to the need for better control of spacing, and that is why, I now use four nylon bolts (one at each corner) Each plate is separated by an "approximate" 1.1 mm washer.Originally Posted by computerclinic
Further, I suspendthe electrodes in the canister, so they do not touch any of the sides, or bottom. Bouncing, has no effect on them, as the only thing they hit, is water.
I emphasize the word approximate, before Darth Vador calls me out, on the mathematics of it.
I also agree the bickering should stop, but he projects to the world, that I am using 5 neutral plates between pole plates. And, wrongly calculates total surface area.
I never said any such thing, and in fact, if I had, the entire electrode would be worthless, as a two volt drop between cells +NNNNN- would produce Zero volts, at the exiting point!
It would in fact be 12 10 8 6 4 2 0, with 12, and 0 representing the entering, and exiting currents. Obviously "0" volts, can not exit, as 0 volts, is a non existing number, or electrical current.
For that very reason, generators with neutral plates need to be wired in parallel, and fused/breaker separately. Wireing two such generators in series would input only 4 volts to the second generator, which would not reach the exiting point of the same, suffering a two volt drop between plates.
Further, the lack of visual evidance of oxygen production, on the opposite side of every so called neutral plate, does not mean that its surface area, does not come into play.
Because the electrons in the hydrogen atoms (after dissassociation), outweigh the electrons of the Oxygen atoms, by a two to one ratio, they are by the laws of physics, drawn to the negative poles, where they cling. Remenber, that at this point, dissassotiation has taken place, and the hydrogen atoms are changed for a natural negative, to positively charged atoms (attracted to the opposite pole).
The Oxygen atoms are twenty times larger, that a single hydrogen atom, but the shear number of the smaller atoms, makes it impossible for the oxygen atom to go to the negative pole, as it is also repelled by the like charged hydrogen, which resides there.
Size has no effect whatsoever, in the electrical strength of the atoms. Each atom (of both elements), is now equal in strength, but there are twice as many hydrogen atoms (and hydrogen electrons). So, by shear force, it takes precidence being attracted to the opposite negative pole, as well as the negative sides of the neutral (inducted) poles.
Further, oxygen (also positively charged) can not cling to the positive poles of any of the plates, as they also repell like charges.
There is no other place for the oxygen atoms to go, but to try to escape the water (thus the term dissassociation of water).
Because of their shear size (approximately 20 to one), they stir the water, and break the bonds of the hydrogen atoms, in the rukus. (note we also cross sand the plates, to help break this bond).
As for the neutral plates, they have no physical contact with a power source, and rely strictly on induced current. Inducted curent, is magnetical in nature, and thus requires that both fields be present on opposites, of the same metalic item (in this case plates). That does not mean opposite "ends" of the plates, but instead effects the opposite sides of each plate, as each plate faces, each other. I know that sounds difficult to do, but it is possible being the plates are bolted, or otherwise bonded together, leaving intentional gaps.
Hydogen can easilly be visualized, gathering on one side only of each plate, however it is the other side of that plate that repells the oxygen atom, which stirs the soup! Because the repelled oxygen atom is twenty times larger (outnumbered 2:1), it actually has ten times the production value of the hydrogen producing sides.
It is that shear volume, that causes the soup to stir!
Both sides of the plates in question, do play a very important part of the process, and not counting them both in total surface area, is denying the actual process, as it happens.
It would be comparable, to the pre Colunbus era, when the earth was still flat, and the sun still rotated around us! Or before gravity existed!
Obviously, the earth was not flat, and people didn't float in mid air prior to Newton, but the laws of physics, had to be re-written.
We are at yey another such junction, in relation to the laws of physics.
The point is, just because you only see hydrogen bubbles clinging to one side of the plate, does not mean that the other side of the plate does nothing at all.
Without the other side of the plate repulsing the oxygen, dissassotion of water would not take place!
Senior Member
I hope everyone reads the former reply, and thinks this process through, to conclusion.
I can not overemphasize the importance of the second side of each plate, even if no visual evidence of production is seen on the second side.
Because both oxygen and the now altered polarity of the hydrogen atoms are now both charged positive, only one element will be attracted to the negative (opposite) pole, through the commonly held laws of nature.
Hydrogen now has twice the electrons of the oxygen atoms, because hydrogen has twice the count of atoms. Thus hydrogen, attracts (and clings) to all negative sides of every plate in the neutrals, and the negative pole plate.
It repels the oxygen atoms, which are also repelled by the positive poles, of both the polarixed positive plate, and the positively inducted sides, of the neutral plates.
That means oxygen atoms are now repulsed by everything surrounding them, and they try to escape the water solution, causing a boiling type stir.
Oxygen is repulsed from all the positive plates (including neutral plates with inducted current), and thus do not "gather" oxygen, but in fact repell approximately ten times the actual volume of the produced hydrogen.
Because the oxygen atoms are repulsed, there is no visual evidence of production on these plate sides. Yet, they produce ten times the actual volume of the visually active sides.
The oxygen atoms seem to boil, in effort to escape the water solution, which causes many of the hydrogen atoms to also stir in the soup.
Sanding the plates helps to break this bond as well, by creating cross cut ridges in the plates to break surface tension.
gap them .063 or 1.6 mm cuz others have tried different gaps and they dont produce as much. use lye and distilled water, say around 1n teaspoon per quart to start. plates should be less than 2.4 volts, water and lye behaves different than say copper. will leak more and heat will generate more if you use a higher voltage. leakage is waste. always place an insulator on all but the top, wher you leave about a 3/8 gap for bubbles to escape.i use cutting board and draw together with bolts duh but if you act an expert you should not be 3 gapping
what a windbag. bad science no facts. all cells have to have a 0 volt, or exiting potential less than the other plate or plates. parrallel plates? 12 volts or 13.8 between all plates? play bingo but drop electronics and get to your point without the bad science
OK hear is what needs to happen inside the water of a cell the electric needs to be directed to go through all of your plates not all of them have to be connected to power supply they need to be insulated from one another with out voltage going around your neutrals plates if you need to insulate the side and top and bottom whatever it takes to have voltage go through all the plates
Coupla points....
I may be wrong, but
1)
I thought the composition of water (H2O) was (H+) + (H+) + (O--)
Now, doesn't that make Oxygen negative?
I thought the 2H2 (H+H+) gave up a (+) at the neg plate (cathode) and liberated from the 2(O--)
Therefore the (H) component is produced at the cathode.
2)
Hydrogen and Oxygen are not the most explosive on earth.
Hydrogen is extremely flammable, but Oxygen can not burn.
Oxygen is an Oxidiser and assists combustion.
HHO is in a pure stoichometric ratio, and thus becomes very volatile.
3)
Dunno about your claim of converting Hydrogen to positive charge (which it already is, I believe) from negative charge. How do you do that?
4)
I think the electrons do not "cling" to the plates, but become part of the electron flow that we know as current.
my 2c worth
crrrock
Oz.
Danedhorsestead,
I said I would not argue with you concerning your thoughts on oxygen repulsing, so I want.
I just wanted to chime in on keeping spacing uniform with our plates. I use cabinet door bumpers on each corner and next to the screws, they are cheap and you can put as many as you feel you need to keep the spacing uniform. I use the stiff felt ones, which leave apprx. 1/16" between my plates. Other thicknesses are available. I think it makes quick work of putting a cell together, as well.
1973dodger
Senior Member
Dodger;
I would much prefer to agree, to dissagree, than to argue a point, that has no chance of changing your mind.
I will state that the link I gave you, leads to a downloadable PDF file, written by a Mager of the RAF., P Lithrtland Teed, in 1919. I can copy you with the PDF file, if you wish (using e-mail), but it will not upload to this forum.
He dedicates his study to two of his senior ranked colleages, both Brigadeer Generals, who died in the first world war, as the three of them, were responsible for creating the Hydrogen, that filled thousands of Blimps. Some of them very small, and some were a thousand feet long, by 200 ft in diameter. The war was in 1916, and his paper was published at the University of California / Berkley (now known as UCLA/ Berkley).
To produce this much Hydrogen successfully (which they did), they had to know a little bit more, than just a little something about producing hydrogen, as they needed to produce multiple billions of cubic feet, of hydrogen.
Note that all my measurements are stated in imperial, and not the metric, so numbers will not match, info provided in his papers.
In his notes, which have been read by mentors of this forum, as well as others, he states the following ...........
(note there are several large drawings on the pages, so the verbage streatches across several pages)
His words " At the same time Oxygen is liberated at the cathode, hydrogen is liberated at the anode (found at the very bottom of page 131.
On pages 133 to 135, he writes: " Filter Press Type - If in the diagramatic cell (Fig. 15) a plate of conducting material was placed between the anode, and the cathode, and current was switched on, hydrogen would be liberated at the original cathode, and oxygen would be liberated at the original anode, but besides this, it would be found that on one side of the plate facing the original cathode, oxygen would be liberated, while on it's other side hydrogen would be given off. Thus, it is seen that the intermediate platebecomes on one face an anode, and on the other a cathode.
Further, it will be found that the polarisation, or back EMF Resistance, of the cell from the original anode to the original cathode is doubled. Thus the placing of a conductor, to which no electrical connections have been made, turns the original cell into two cells."
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Liberated, definition by Mirriam Webster:
Freed from, or opposed to, such as a sexually liberated woman.
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Given the definition of liberated, it can be established that Oxygen, in order to be liberated at the original anode, can only be electricly opposed to the positive polarity (likes repell, opposites attract) Thus it also, is a positively charged atom, and is not attracted to the anode, as you stated.
It is produced at the anode, but is not attracted to the anode. It is in fact electrically repulsed from the anode.
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