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Thread: Ice breaking

  1. #81
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by DaneDHorstead View Post
    Stu;

    There are a lot of missconceptions in this exploritory field of HHO....

    As an example, some folks call the "cell" the entire electrode component, where others contend that the cell is actually the gap between plates...


    Likewise, it is prettymuch agreed that the N plate is Neutral (also agreeable that, it could easilly be called U, for unconnected). I would agree with you, in respect that perhaps the U better describes the unconnected plates, as in fact once introduced to inducted currents, they essentially are not neutral, due to the EMF. Still, they are not connected to any pole plates, but do possess the anode, and cathode abilities (thus, they in effect, are not totally neutral)

    In my explanation I mistakenly called the 2 a Neutral plate, when in fact it is the negative

    My appologies, I made a typo, and didn't catch it (Im very good, at making typos).

    As for the Negative cell plate reading "0", the entire circuit wouldn't work!

    If you have absolutely no voltage out, you have no circuit, at all. In order to have a circuit, it must flow. If there is no current out, it is essentually bankrupt, and therefore nonexistant.

    In life, we can actually get away with having nothing in the wallet, at least for a short time, as long as we avoid the bill collecter. But with a bank account, as well as an electrical circuit, once it hits a zero ballance, the account (and circuits) no longer exist.

    But, even if you just had one cent, left in the account (and/or circuit), still exist.

    In order to have a circuit, there must be at least a trickle of outbound current, or there is no completion of the electrical path (no circuit). And the whole device, will shut down.

    As it is shown (given the correction that the 2 represents the negative connection, and not a neutral), 2 volts are gathered from each direction, making a combined 4 volts at that particular plate.

    Another plate could be introduced, so there are two negatives, side by side, but they would still connect together, causing 4 volts total, at the negative terminal. Adding that particular plate, therefore is wasted material, and not needed.

    If they don't connect together, there is no completed circuit for at least one of the sides (losing one entire bank of plates), and if a third plate is introduced between them, and the 2's actually do represent a Neutral (unconnected plates), then the end result is 0 voltage at the Negative, and again both circuits are bankrupt/lost, as there can be no flow, with absolutely no current present!
    Measure the voltage on the negative terminal of your car battery.

    Place one lead of your voltmeter on the - terminal.

    Where will you place the other lead in order to measure the voltage?


    BoyntonStu

  2. #82
    Negative battery terminal is ground, and is not expected to contain a charge, as it acts much as the earth, in dissipating current.

    A positive charge in a car battery will not arc to the earths ground, as neither would an old eveready dry cell. Also house current, will not flow to an automobiles, ground terminal (excluding through the intentionally designed battery charger, which uses transformed (induced) current).

    Each only works within its own system, and depends on the strength of flow (volts), to get the job done.

    Similarly, if you take ten, or fifteen 100 ft long extension cords (hooked end to end), and try to run an electric device, a thousand or more feet from the power source, you won't get much done. The voltage drop is so severe, the circuit, is virtually dead. The current is still there, but it can't flow!

    At the end of the path, there is no current left, to run the lamp, appliance, or tool, as it has been so weakened, by the voltage situation.

    A power source must react to the ground within its own system, but if the voltage drop is so severe, that there is no flow to the current, there can be no reaction between positive, and negative.

    Although the car's negative post is not actually connected to earth, it's negative capacity so far outweighs the positive charge, that spent current, disipates through the frame, much the same way currents need to be grounded, to the frame of an old TV, before working on it.

    As an example, you should never work on a TV, even if it's been unplugged for 20 years, without first taking a long screwdriver, and creating a ground (to the chasis), from just under the large rubber seal, at the back of the picture tube. To do this, you do not have to plug the TV in, and in fact, you shouldn't plug it in, unless you have a death wish.

    When the picture tube is grounded, it is very evident, as a loud enough spark will be perfectly adible.

    Old radios are the same way. Capacitant currents disipate to the larger frame, becomming harmless, but only after they have been set free. In relation to thes appliances, the capacitant currents have been absorbed, from surrounding static.

    And if you need to work on that TV years in the future, you will again have to ground the picture tube, as it will again absorb static current from the air (curent powerful enough to kill).

    The HHO generators are in fact capacitors, as they cause currents to jump accross "poor conductors". Capacitors, are intentionally designed, to be poor conductors.

    Argueably, the original man made capacitors, used a large glass bell shape, with metal foil on both sides (inside, and outside), but not touching each other.

    Most everyone knows that glass is not considered to be a conductor, and was largly used as an insulater, for telegraph, and power poles. Glass does in deed conduct current, but very poorly (as a capacitor). Many items, not considered to be conductors, are used for capacitors, such as cardboard, cotton, ceramics, and the list is almost unending.

    There are those who would argue that the very first man made capacitor, was the Arc of the Covenant. It was made with Tsecatia wood, and was plated with gold inside, and out, but it was said to lack but a very minute air gap, between the wings (and plates) touching each other, and if anyone were to touch it, they would fall dead.

    It was dragged over static sands, decade after decade, using wooden poles to handle it.


    HHO generator plates, in fact are capacitors, and capacitance will self dissipate, provided it has a path (circuit), But in the case where voltage has been dropped beyond the currents available strength, to bridge the last plate gap, it will either sit idle (waiting to build strength to make that jump), or it will wait until the pathway is bridged, such as grounding the picture tube in the TV.


    Negative terminal in a house panel also, is grounded (shares ground with ganged neutrals, at the panel), which is a farce, as the so called neutral wire is not at all neutral, it is in fact, a duel ground wire.

    As for the volt ohm meter, to the car battery, the positive pole, should read anywhere from 12 to 14 volts, but just putting the volt meters positive lead on the post, does not show any current at all. It is the other lead, that completes the circuit.

    The only way it will display, is to complete the circuit, by grounding the other lead of the VOM. But, if there are not enough volts (VOM battery) to complete that circuit, it still will not show voltage.

    It is the same, for the voltage drop, that has no current left, being 0 volts, at the negative.

    There is not enough voltage left, to complete the circuit, as 0 volts are found at the final link, and the circuit is not completed.

    Amps, is current, but voltage is the rate of flow. Zero flow, equals zero circuit.

    In order to have flow, there must be at least a trickle of voltage left, at the end of a circuit.

  3. #83
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by DaneDHorstead View Post
    Negative battery terminal is ground, and is not expected to contain a charge, as it acts much as the earth, in dissipating current.

    A positive charge in a car battery will not arc to the earths ground, as neither would an old eveready dry cell. Also house current, will not flow to an automobiles, ground terminal (excluding through the intentionally designed battery charger, which uses transformed (induced) current).

    Each only works within its own system, and depends on the strength of flow (volts), to get the job done.

    Similarly, if you take ten, or fifteen 100 ft long extension cords (hooked end to end), and try to run an electric device, a thousand or more feet from the power source, you won't get much done. The voltage drop is so severe, the circuit, is virtually dead. The current is still there, but it can't flow!

    At the end of the path, there is no current left, to run the lamp, appliance, or tool, as it has been so weakened, by the voltage situation.

    A power source must react to the ground within its own system, but if the voltage drop is so severe, that there is no flow to the current, there can be no reaction between positive, and negative.

    Although the car's negative post is not actually connected to earth, it's negative capacity so far outweighs the positive charge, that spent current, disipates through the frame, much the same way currents need to be grounded, to the frame of an old TV, before working on it.

    As an example, you should never work on a TV, even if it's been unplugged for 20 years, without first taking a long screwdriver, and creating a ground (to the chasis), from just under the large rubber seal, at the back of the picture tube. To do this, you do not have to plug the TV in, and in fact, you shouldn't plug it in, unless you have a death wish.

    When the picture tube is grounded, it is very evident, as a loud enough spark will be perfectly adible.

    Old radios are the same way. Capacitant currents disipate to the larger frame, becomming harmless, but only after they have been set free. In relation to thes appliances, the capacitant currents have been absorbed, from surrounding static.

    And if you need to work on that TV years in the future, you will again have to ground the picture tube, as it will again absorb static current from the air (curent powerful enough to kill).

    The HHO generators are in fact capacitors, as they cause currents to jump accross "poor conductors". Capacitors, are intentionally designed, to be poor conductors.

    Argueably, the original man made capacitors, used a large glass bell shape, with metal foil on both sides (inside, and outside), but not touching each other.

    Most everyone knows that glass is not considered to be a conductor, and was largly used as an insulater, for telegraph, and power poles. Glass does in deed conduct current, but very poorly (as a capacitor). Many items, not considered to be conductors, are used for capacitors, such as cardboard, cotton, ceramics, and the list is almost unending.

    There are those who would argue that the very first man made capacitor, was the Arc of the Covenant. It was made with Tsecatia wood, and was plated with gold inside, and out, but it was said to lack but a very minute air gap, between the wings (and plates) touching each other, and if anyone were to touch it, they would fall dead.

    It was dragged over static sands, decade after decade, using wooden poles to handle it.


    HHO generator plates, in fact are capacitors, and capacitance will self dissipate, provided it has a path (circuit), But in the case where voltage has been dropped beyond the currents available strength, to bridge the last plate gap, it will either sit idle (waiting to build strength to make that jump), or it will wait until the pathway is bridged, such as grounding the picture tube in the TV.


    Negative terminal in a house panel also, is grounded (shares ground with ganged neutrals, at the panel), which is a farce, as the so called neutral wire is not at all neutral, it is in fact, a duel ground wire.

    As for the volt ohm meter, to the car battery, the positive pole, should read anywhere from 12 to 14 volts, but just putting the volt meters positive lead on the post, does not show any current at all. It is the other lead, that completes the circuit.

    The only way it will display, is to complete the circuit, by grounding the other lead of the VOM. But, if there are not enough volts (VOM battery) to complete that circuit, it still will not show voltage.

    It is the same, for the voltage drop, that has no current left, being 0 volts, at the negative.

    There is not enough voltage left, to complete the circuit, as 0 volts are found at the final link, and the circuit is not completed.

    Amps, is current, but voltage is the rate of flow. Zero flow, equals zero circuit.

    In order to have flow, there must be at least a trickle of voltage left, at the end of a circuit.
    Dane,

    You really have to relearn electricity.

    "Amps, is current, but voltage is the rate of flow"

    Look at you AC receptacle.

    Is there a Voltage between the wide slot on the left and the narrow slot on the right (ground hole below)?

    Is there any current between the two when nothing is plugged in?

    The Voltage is still there.

    Is there any rate of flow?

    Apparently, you have several misconceptions about the voltages in a cell.

    Remember E=I X R or Volts = Current in Amps x Resistance in Volts

    When you measure voltage, you measure between 2 points.

    For example: Take a 1,000 foot of #10 AWG solid copper wire.

    The resistance is almost exactly 1 Ohm.

    Connect the long wire to a 1 Volt battery whose terminals are 1,000 feet apart.

    You have a voltmeter with 2 - 500 foot leads.

    First measure from 0 to 1,000 feet. 1 Volt

    Next measure from 0 to 1 ft. 1/1000 Volt or 1 mV.

    Now slide the test leads down a foot and measure the Voltage between 1 and 2 ft. Again 1 mV.

    Keep sliding your leads down the wire to its 999 ft mark.

    From 999 to 1,000 again 1 mV.

    At the 1,000 ft point there is nothing at the left to measure from.

    The last position on the wire is Zero Volts.

    Back to the cell.

    A single stack of 5 cells acts exactly like the wire above.


    Study this a bit and get back.


    I hope that this helps.

    Boyntonstu

  4. #84
    Zero volts is an assigned value, of ground, much as 0 degrees C. is an assigned value of freezing as compared to water, at specific gravity (sea level). These values change, given different altitude values, and although few people would think of it, that also applies below sea level, or other atmospheric conditions.

    Man assigned the zero value, in order to gain a grasp on his understanding of it, much as the sun once rotated around the earth, which at the time, was understood to be flat.

    Although the sun was later proven not to rotate around the earth, man needed to wrap his mind around a conception of it, which made sense to him.

    The volt ohm meter works by measuring the value of currents, in a multitude of variances, be it amps,volts, mv, etc, as compared to that assigned zero value. The difference between the assigned zero value, and what the needle points to, can only measure the positive values. Unlike a thermometer, which graduates above, and below the assigned zero base value, which uses the freezing point, and boiling points of water, for assigns. However, measurements above and below the freezing/boiling points are not only possible, they are a very real probability, which mankind works with everyday.

    Note also, that manking can not agree on those assignments, as we use values of F. and C, to establish our graduations, and even calculate some strange formulas, to convert one to another.

    Current in the earth (negative in nature, by our understanding of it), is very real, and without it, weather situations such as ball lightning, and St Elmo's fire can not exist. In fact regular lightning can not exist without it, but just because we assign a negative respect to one side of it, does not mean it has no current value. What it means, is that deviationg from our conception of it, alters it to a point that is not commonly popular. Thus, it must be regarded as incorrect!

    The earth and sky, play a balancing act, with currents, as they also do with water vapors, in their many forms.

    If current only flowed in one direction (positive to negative), the sky would have run dry of electricity, long before mankind was even thought of. And if there were no currents in the (negative) earth, that interaction of currents, could not exist today. The same applies to cloud, to cloud exchanges of currents.

    Negative currents do in fact exist, and interact with positive charges (and other negative charges) every day of our lives.

    The balance of positive and negative charges range far beyond what any VOM can display, as the VOM measures only the top portion of the scale (from the "assigned" zero volt base point, upwards).

    Based on the values of the VOM, the input value of current, must be divided by the number of plates, to come to a zero value, thus 14 divided by seven comes to 2 volts each, but in reality the volt drop of the last cell only gets to zero, as the slightest trickle of current crossed the finish line, which means that if it was dimished to zero even the smallest fraction, of an inch before crossing that line, the circuit was not completed.

    Much like the messenger, that was sent 26 miles to get help for the greek army, who was being defeated at Marathon..... If the runner crossed the finish line, and died before telling the situation to the general, the war would have been lost, Instead, he collapsed and died after the telling of it, and help arrived to win the battle.

    Magnets also have positive and negative values. Placing two donut shaped magnets on a small upright PVC tube, negative, facing negative, the magnets will not fall, one, upon the other. They repell from each other.

    They repell each other, because even though both faces are commonly missunderstood to have no current values, in fact each does contain an equal and opposite value of opposing (negative) charges. Those values are enough to lift a 100 ton monorail off of it's tracks (or more), when properly applied. Further, using simple diodes, we can control which of those current forces we want to apply, so that with the flip of a switch, current forces can be made to attract or repell, simply by reversing which end of a coil, we wish to energise first.

    The assigned zero value of the Negative battery pole, is based on a point of dissapation of currents into earth (or ground) situations. That does not mean, that currents are not in the earth, but they are not shown on the meter, as the VOM does not measure negative values.

    It is simply designed to measure the difference in value, from the assigned zero base point.

    If the negative pole were disconnected from the situation that started this discussion, the 2 value would register as a 4 (double the 2 value), when the VOM was placed at the 2 volt plate, and the VOM was also connected to the negative battery terminal. But not breaking that connection, zero is registered, as all current at that plate is dissipated, to ground.

    Walking in stocking feet, accross a carpet, causes a small spark, when you touch a door knob. The door knob is not electricly charged, and neither is the carpet, at least not in the respect that we commonly think of circuitry. Although, one could possibly consider the wooden door to act as a capacitor, between the metal hinges, and the knob, but that doesn't explain the curent gathered from the carpet.

    There is electric in almost everything around us, with far fewer exceptions, than realities.

    And even poor conductors, act as capacitors, if placed between the proper charges (intentionally, accidentally, or in nature).

    And to assign only positive values to it, is essentally, living in a still flat world.

    While it is essentially true that the world only understands positive values, ignoring the fact that there are currents in the negative, is a groose misconception. But then virtually anything man has measured, has changed over time (speaking of time, would that have been BC, or AD?)

    For every action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction. That especially holds true, when dealing with electric, and EMF.

    I have worked with electricity for over fifty years, owning two elevator companies, and a motor repair shop. I deal with capacitance every day, in bi-directional motors, which also incorporate limit switch controls, a solenoid brake, and planetary gearboxes.

    We use the same motor windings (both directions) at the same time, to pull heavy loads.

    The capacitors, delay the secondary field, so the motor can start in a chosen direction, and then when the capacitor releases current, the motor responds as though it hit second gear.

    Utilizing diodes, and relays, we can reverse the flow of current through the secondary field, by causing current to exit a motor coil, which would have been the entrance point, if the reverse direction had beed called for.

    Running the motor this way, allows double the power, rather than only using half of the available motor windings, for a given direction. Controling voltage direction, and capacitance, allows twice the power.

  5. #85
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    Smile

    Dane,

    I enjoy reading your philisophical bent on things.

    Good thinking.

    It took a lot of writing to get to:

    "If the negative pole were disconnected from the situation that started this discussion, the 2 value would register as a 4 (double the 2 value), when the VOM was placed at the 2 volt plate, and the VOM was also connected to the negative battery terminal. But not breaking that connection, zero is registered, as all current at that plate is dissipated, to ground."

    "Zero is registered."


    That is what I was attempting to explain.

    I agree that 0 Volts is a man made scratch on the Volts measuring stick and it is a reference point good from which other Voltages are measured.

    Whenever you use the term - in a cell, that point is by common definition zero Volts unless you are using a negative voltage below a reference.

    All ATX PC power supplies have negative voltages available.

    Are you excited as I am about Painless's experiment?


    Boyntonstu

  6. #86
    Stu;

    Note that I too love a good argument (exchange, challenge, or whatever you wish to call it).

    I don't argue for just the sake of arguing, but to point out to others, that there is more than one way, to look at things.

    In fact, our two viewpoints on this, are more alike, than different. However, I contend that even the extreme slightest of measurable distances from the Zero volt ground, there is still some slight voltage present, or contact with the negative can not be made.

    It would be comparable to running out of gas three inches from the extent the gas hose reaches. While yes, you could push the car to the pump, it still requires an outside force to do so. But, likewise, it is almost a futile effort to argue the point.

    Even a milivolt, can be divided a thousand ways, and without some slight trickle of current to make contact, with the negative, a circuit is not established. No circuit, equals no flow (equals no production).

    One thing I know for certain....... we gave readers, something to think about!

    To me, it is a debate, and to properly debate, you must be able to switch sides at the drop of a hat, and argue as venemently, as before.

    There is truth to the flat earth comparisons, as HHO defies several laws of physics, which means they must be rewritten!

    Throughout time, man has argued that he is correct, only to be proven wrong, on some very basic concepts. Universal laws had to change, and each time, we learned something new.

    Stan Myers could have taught us a lot but oil decided to silence him.

    And, if we were able to grasp the wonders, of Einsteins brain power........

    I love a good chess game too!

    I mean no offence, but love the challenge!


    I know nothing of Painless's experiment.
    Give me a link, or direction, to follow.

  7. #87
    "Zero is registered"

    "That is what I was trying to explain"

    Stu;

    I fully understood your argument, and for the most part I was leaning to allign with you, but I couldn't quite let go of the concept that even the slightest small decimile of a volt, must make the complete trip, to connect the circuit. Thus the marathon runner comment.

    Note that the 26.5 mile run, to this day is still called a marathon. But if he hadn't lived long enough, to convey the message, the whole point was mute. Meaning, he was not yet 100% spent at the end, but damned near it.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Great Falls, Montana, USA
    Posts
    35
    I've been posting on these forums for a couple of months now, but thought I'd better introduce myself...
    I'm Ed, from Great Falls, Montana. I'm currently on my third incarnation of HHO generator. So far I've taken my 1987 Toyota 4x4 pickup (22R/5 spd with mods) from a baseline of 22 mpg, to 31.2 mpg. At first I was a real skeptic about this whole HHO thing. I remember thinking "snake oil" when I first heard about it, and then later making up my mind that I would never know, if I didn't try it. I'm now a firm believer.
    My first efforts where with the Water4Gas design, then the Smack's booster, and currently, due to space limitations under the Toyota's hood, I used the Smack's internals in a 6x6x4" electrical box, with potassium hydroxide for the electrolyte. My attention has now turned to the "dry" cells, which I hope will be my next adventure.

    Lots of good info and good folks on this forum! Thanks for being so kind and generous with your knowledge!
    Ed Caffrey, ABS Mastersmith
    www.caffreyknives.net

  9. #89
    coffeeachiever Guest

    Coffee for short

    I'm Coffeeachiever (Coffee for short) and I'm a paramedic in Tennessee. I've been researching hho fanatically for several months now and am on my sixth build. I think I have solved my thermal runaway problem and will finally be installing my unit on my 86 toyota (carbed) the day after tomorrow. I'm not sure what my milage is currently as I just cleared A LOT of carbon build up from my EGR pipe and my fuel economy has drastically improved.

    My current unit is an open bath design in 4" PVC and two bubblers. My next build (for my wife's 96 Jeep Cherokee) will be a dry cell very similar to the one Zero and his gang are selling.

    I wanted to share a simple fix I figured out early on. I use a clean out cap to seal my cell(s). I found that there is significant gas leakage around the cap no matter how tight I screw it on. To solve this I spread ring wax on the male and female threads for the cap. Excess is forced to the top and I simply wipe it off. It works like a champ.

    I thank you all for all I have learned. I look forward to sharing my results and teaching others all I have learned over the past eight months.

    Coffee

  10. #90
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    hi

    hi,im ashmir from malaysia too.Where do you live?
    ash

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