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Thread: Does size matter?

  1. #11
    dennis13030 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnh View Post
    Got to agree with the last post, The gasses are released in the 2:1 ratio when the water molecules are broken, seeing we need a balanced ratio of water molecules on each plate then it make sense to have the same area on each side.

    As far as plate size is concerned Amp loading is definitely proven to be a limiting factor in hydrogen generation.

    From "The chemistry and Manufature of hydrogen" P Litherland Teed 1919 the usual amp loading in commercial electrolysers of the day with iron plates was between 15 and 30 Amps per sq ft. With modern electrolysers with stainless or nickel plates this has been increased, its hard to pin a figure down because its commercially sensitive but it seems a practical limit is about .1amp/Sq cm or 93 amps per sq ft. Much higher current densitys are being touted for nano particle electrodes Quantum Sphere are quoting 1.2 Amps / sq cm for their nano nickel elctrodes so 1100Amps / sq ft.
    quantum electrodes (PDF)

    The .1Amp /Sq cm seems to be about right for what I have made But to get up there without excess heat everything has to be right. From my experience 1mm plate spacing is too close with the amount of gas generated at high amp loading, but there may be ways around this.

    Regards
    John
    Thanks John for sharing that PDF. The info on the efficiency vs. Cell voltage was VERY interesting to me. It looks like ideal voltage is between 1.3V and 2.0V per cell.

  2. #12
    timetowinarace Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkie View Post


    I have finally set up a decent ammeter although its range is only 20A.
    Turns out I am producing about half a liter of HHO per minute at 20A.
    Not good enough by any means.Imagine the current draw at 1LPM of HHO.
    I am running +NNN-NNN+ a nine plate arrangement and the plates are 143mm deep by 66mm wide and 1mm apart. needles to say I am a bit disappointed.
    I must admit I have not insulated the 1/4" stainless steel supply rods yet or used a decent electrolyte. Damn baking soda is getting to hot for my liking.
    Can't wait for my Potassium hydroxide to turn up.
    I might try a smack booster arrangement next. Except I will use my 316 Stainless without the bent edges as I cannot purchase those wall plates here in Aussie land.
    Maybe I need to paint the edges with something to prevent current leakage as well.
    I need to stay under my 30A self imposed limit for this.
    I guess this is what it is all about...trial and error.
    has anyone looked at those Alexis cells yet. 2.2LPM at 18A sounds too good to be true.
    I think 1mm gap is too close. 3mm or 1/8" has been found to be optimum.

    Plate size does matter. 2-4 square inches of plate area on every face is recommended for each amp of current for optimal performance according to Patrick Kelly.

  3. #13
    Dewayne Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gasmakr View Post
    Hydro is right hydrogen is made on the neg. plate and the oxy is made on the pos. from my exp. the more neg the better
    If "H" is produced on the - plate and "O" on the + plate, I guessing an over sized - plate might be helpfully.

    If we're extracting 2 atoms of "H" to 1 atom of "O" dosen't it make sense to have the - plate twice the area of the + plate.

    Any ideas?

  4. #14
    Johnh Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Dewayne View Post
    If "H" is produced on the - plate and "O" on the + plate, I guessing an over sized - plate might be helpfully.

    If we're extracting 2 atoms of "H" to 1 atom of "O" dosen't it make sense to have the - plate twice the area of the + plate.

    Any ideas?
    There needs to be the same no of molecules of water being acted on on each plate.

    When the Oxygen is released two hydrogen ions are also released.
    When the hydrogen is released something happens to the oxygen but I'll have to have a look and see what.

    Although twice the volume of hydrogen is produced 8 times the mass of oxygen is produced !

    I really don't know the correct answer. sounds like some experiments are needed.

    John

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Columbus Ohio
    Posts
    211

    neutral plates

    It seems like plate area helps.

    Adding neutral plates definitely helps at automobile voltages. I use a +nnnn-nnnn+ setup and it works pretty good. At 4 to 5 amps with 1 qt jar, I went from baseline 22.4 mpg in my 2.3 liter ranger to 30.8 mpg.

    Just put a 1/2 gal bottle in at 5 to 7 amps, have to wait to fill up to give data on it.

  6. #16
    scottyhho Guest

    Smile

    I must say, up until now, i have understood most of what everyone has been talking about. You guys have now lost me. Y'all are smart and stuff......

  7. #17
    ozboy Guest

    Smile more HHO production

    hi guys

    im from aussie check our e-bay www.ebay.com.au the following is for sale
    http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....MEWA:IT&ih=013 they are a twin unit whats your thoughts i have purchase a single on problem i have is i live in the snowy mountains and the water freezes and leaks out over night any ideas also could i ran anti freeze in bubbler

    cheers conrad

  8. #18
    HomeGrown Guest
    Could someone please explain the concept of neutral plates? I simply don't understand the benefit of plates basically not being utilized. If you have a configuration of -nn+nn- then how are you getting any reaction between the - & + plates? Is any gas generated between the neutral plates? How is -nn+nn- better than simply -+- ?
    If you have an investment of 7 plates, wouldn't you get more gas production out of a -+-+-+- configuration?

    Sorry for all the n00b questions, but I'm really curious about this.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    173
    Well the easiest way to explain the neutral plate thing is this.

    By adding neutral plates to the mix, we are reducing the ammount of electric in the water, this reduces heat in the cell. Neutral plates will take on the polarity of the neigboring plates. I would guess that -nnn+nnn- would be the best producer in this example, but my experiments and many others as well have found that the +nnn-nnn+ config works out best. The down side is that we need to use a stronger electrolyte in order to produce the same ammount of gas.

    Thats at least my understanding so far, and I am hoping that someone may correct me or add to this.

    You also see alot of folks discussing PWM's or pulse with modulation. This will help control the ammount of electric in the water, too.

    An alternative that I am experimenting with right now is increasing the ammount of water in the cell to over come the heat issue without needing the PWM or neutral plates. Although it may be a good idea to keep the neutral plates anyway because I think that it may put less stress on the alternator and battery in the car. Havent gotten that far with those experiments to see if there is any truth to the car parts stuff yet, but thats next.
    "You don't always have to know ALL the answers, but you do need to know where to find them."

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    713
    The amount of oxygen produced is equal to the amount of hydrogen. During the reaction, part of the anode is oxydized releasing an oxygen atom. That is why the anode falls apart after time, because part of it is being destroyed. Ok, i will attempt to expain why +-+ is better than -+-. It easy actually once you undetstand that electrons flow from negative to positive. +-+ is actually two circuits where as -+- is only one.
    2006 Ram, 5.9 cummins HO. 4 cell design, 1.5 LPM@30amp, 24.3 MPG

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