New in SE Mich - Questions

[wydopnthrtl]

Hello all, Got some newb Qs here..

I'm a OEM automotive engineer by trade and more importantly I'm a true blue gear head. Have been since I was able to drag my knuckles at age 3. (Build my own engines, am into high perf cars, e-tuning and such)

Ok I've been reading as much as I can about this subject for about two weeks now and am pretty close to giving it a try. But I have some questions that hopefully folks here can answer before I take the first step.

Please comment as you can!

1) A/F ratio and EGTs.
I'm not convinced that using HHO is doing much more than leaning out the a/f ratio. Has anyone used a wideband sensor or measured EGTs? Anybody pulled a spark plug to see it's color and residue?

There is an awful lot of assumptions taking place on what the PCM is doing with fuel. Has nobody ever actually measured thier EGT? (exhaust gas temp)

2a) I don't understand the relationship & safety of producing a steady amount of HHO but yet the engine has differing needs. High rpm, high load, idle, ect.. Seems to me that producing enough HHO to really make a difference would have a dangerous amount being produced at extended idle situations. I suppose pressures (vacuum) would draw 100% once rpms come up. But what about extended idling??

2b) If HHO was by it'self more combustible I'd think you'd see the idle speed rise when plumbed into the intake post TB. (throttle body) Doing it this way is no different than injecting a smal amount of fuel and nitrous. (of which I have great engineering & practical knowldge) If I were to inject 10hp worth of N/F post TB the rpms would rise enough that the IAC valve wouldn't be able to compensate for. But the rpms would only go up about 500-100 So.. Why does putting hydrogen and oxygen into the intake (post TB) not do the same thing?

3) Some people tie this into the intake before the TB. Tieing it in before the TB and after the MAF is introducing an unmetered media (air). This alone *might* lean out the mix a little until the upstream 02s & pcm correct for it. (takes a little time for it to change fuel trims) Seems to me that avg MPG would be a bit better over time if the HHO is actually increasing efficiency. But I'd also expect to see a CEL before too long. Would expect to see a code relating to 02 sensor readings.

4) So many people put thier efforts into building the units and then post results. That's awsome... but I'd think that getting MPG readings averaged over time would be a higher priority. Where is the proof over say 3-6 months that it's actually worth all the trouble?

Please chime in!

Regards,
Rich

[Stratous]

I am not sure about all those questions that you have asked. The device is cheap to build, so build one and test it yourself. If you have doubts, then the only way to solve them is to do it yourself. There are thousands of testimonials on the internet saying that this works. I am telling you it works, but you still doubt. So what can I say that will make you believe? Make a $20 system and install it on your test vehicle and prove it to yourself. Not trying to sound negative, but jeez. There are half a dozen people on this site alone that are shouting "IT WORKS" here are my numbers!!!! I am not selling anything, so what do I gain by making this up? I have been running this system for 3 weeks. My first MPG test was 21MPG, my second was 23.2 mpg. My stock MPG is 17.7. All of these test were done with city driving, I havent touched a highway since march. The test was preformed on a 2006 Dodge 3/4 ton /5.9 liter cummins.

[wydopnthrtl]

I think you mis-understand my intention. I'm not questioning *if* it works. I'm simply wanting to understand how it works and what is or *is not* happening when running HHO. (on a finite level)

I've never questioned the "thousands" who are getting results. What I question is **why** they are getting better milage.
For instance, one guy found that removing all moisture from the supply line netted him zero gain in milage.
So based on that one account, how do you know for sure your not just creating a HHO/water injection system? Are you getting better milage from the water being misted in? And to what degree is it playing a part? 0%? 50% 100% ??? Would you see the exact same gain from a water injection kit alone? See what I'm getting at?

Efficiency is everything in any type of engine. Before I give this a try I want to understand what is efficient.. and what isn't.


One thing I do question and have seen zero proof of is the A/F ratio and EGTs. If a HHO kit is doing what folks claims and having no ill-effects... you'd see EGTs in line with near stock measurements. As far as A/F ratios measured by a wideband.. I'm just not sure what to expect. This to me is a HUGE clue in figuring out whats going on inside the CC.

btw, I have both of these measuring devices and *if* I choose to take this on I'll measure both then report.
Considering the cost involved I just might give it a try.

Regards,
Rich

[Stratous]

I think you mis-understand my intention. I'm not questioning *if* it works. I'm simply wanting to understand how it works and what is or *is not* happening when running HHO. (on a finite level)

I've never questioned the "thousands" who are getting results. What I question is **why** they are getting better milage.
For instance, one guy found that removing all moisture from the supply line netted him zero gain in milage.
So based on that one account, how do you know for sure your not just creating a HHO/water injection system? Are you getting better milage from the water being misted in? And to what degree is it playing a part? 0%? 50% 100% ??? Would you see the exact same gain from a water injection kit alone? See what I'm getting at?

Efficiency is everything in any type of engine. Before I give this a try I want to understand what is efficient.. and what isn't.


One thing I do question and have seen zero proof of is the A/F ratio and EGTs. If a HHO kit is doing what folks claims and having no ill-effects... you'd see EGTs in line with near stock measurements. As far as A/F ratios measured by a wideband.. I'm just not sure what to expect. This to me is a HUGE clue in figuring out whats going on inside the CC.

btw, I have both of these measuring devices and *if* I choose to take this on I'll measure both then report.
Considering the cost involved I just might give it a try.

Regards,
Rich

To be honest, I run my HHO through a bubbler before its released into my intake. I am not sure if any moisture us being released into the air. I wouldnt think so. I dont have the ability to test my EGT's. My gains are pretty small compaired to what others have gotten. Regardless of the gains, I plan to install one on my wifes vehicle which is a toyota seinna. Most of the documentation I have read simply states that the HHO helps the engine burn fuel better. My own limited experiance has only shown that something is making my truck get better mileage. Sorry for misreading your previous post.

[xtremerydz]

To answer one of your questions: yes it will lean out your airfuel mixture, due to the fact you are introducing Oxygen along with the hydrogen. So in order to compensate for this you need to trick the comp to run a little richer. I'm also a mechanic and have thought out this area of the system. What has to be done is a test of the actual O2-sensor readings while driving with the cell connected. This will give you an idea of the EG readings next do it without the cell connected and see what they are(or vise versa) doesn't matter. Once results are taken you would have to compensate for the readings when cell is on. Now I've heard people making their vehicles run lean to do this. I've heard people blocking off their O2-sensor which would make it run lean but also turn the check engine light on. The only proper way to do the system is to use the voltage from the TPS ran to a microprossessor to calculate what the load is and how the O2-sensor would act until it was compensated correctly by the PCM. Running an engine lean for a long period of time is going to add extra wear and tare to internal parts not to mention the EG temp. With respects to the exhaust gas temp if i is too high you will produce NOX which to is a major contributor to pollution, the extra oxygen would be the cause of the NOX because it will drive the temp of the catalytic converter up. But hey like they say the only way to perfect a system like this to build it and use it then make the necessary adjustments and tell people about it so we all can share the info.


If a lone person calls out for more nothing will change or stop. But if we all join together and call out we cannot be stopped!

[wydopnthrtl]

To answer one of your questions: yes it will lean out your airfuel mixture, due to the fact you are introducing Oxygen along with the hydrogen.

This is what I'm thinking too. And here is something else to consider. Oxyhydrogen combusts at 1065F at 1 bar. Thats fine for putting a flame to it and hearing the bang. I'm not so sure that it's actually burning in the compressed state though. Once inside the combustion chamber everything is compressed to 9:1 give or take a little.

I suspect the hydrogen is not burning. I suspect that the hydrogen is simply passing through the motor and acting as a displacment media. Much like the EGR system and how it's passing inert gasses through.
I propose that the a/f ratio is leaning out because of the added oxygen, inert gasses, and possibly because of water vapor.

Now if done in proper amounts it'll be fine. (OEMs typically have a 10% rich condition for high milage and carbon buildup situation. Makes for best power too)
Here is the thing I just can't get past. IMO its an overwhelming thing.. you could do the same thing by adjusting the egr/tune/MAF/02 sensors.
If you leaned it out in one of those ways instead.. you'd get the same results w/o having the cost and trouble of a HHO kit.

What has to be done is a test of the actual O2-sensor readings while driving with the cell connected. This will give you an idea of the EG readings next do it without the cell connected and see what they are(or vise versa) doesn't matter.

Stock 02s are narrow band sensors. They are not accurate enough to do that with. You need a wide band or lambda to get accurate readings. Readings good enough to tune by.

The only proper way to do the system is to use the voltage from the TPS ran to a microprossessor to calculate what the load is....

Actually with a good OBD2 scanner you can read the load live. Or datalog it into a laptop.
I have the scanguage in my ranger 24/7
At idle it pulls 25-30% load And running down the hwy it pulls 50% load.
Here is a link:
My scanguage

....With respects to the exhaust gas temp if i is too high you will produce NOX which to is a major contributor to pollution, the extra oxygen would be the cause of the NOX because it will drive the temp of the catalytic converter up...

This is why I'm posting here and trying to figure all this out. As of yet, I'm just not convinced that the a/f isn't being leaned out. And if thats all that happening? There are far easier ways to go about it.

Regards,
Rich

[Stratous]

1065 degrees is the temp at which it will auto ignite. That means it will ignite at that temperature w/o an ignition source. A simple spark will ignite HHO gas otherwise. Thats what the spark plug or glow plug is for.

[wydopnthrtl]

Ah ok. So at what point does an open flame ignite it? and when it's under pressure at what temp does it ignite? (I'd expect it to be lower once compressed)

And something else I don't understand. If it is burning, why don't the rpms go up at idle? When I inject a small amount of fuel and nitrous it does.

Regards,
Rich

[Stratous]

I am not sure why you dont hear a car idle up, but you do hear a smaller engine idle up like a lawn mower engine. Here is more informaiton.

The autoignition temperature is the minimum temperature required to initiate self-sustained combustion in a combustible fuel mixture in the absence of a source of ignition. Inside the motor the HHO doesnt have to self combust.

The octane number describes the anti-knock properties of a fuel when used in an internal combustion engine. Knock is a secondary detonation that occurs after fuel ignition due to
heat buildup in some other part of the combustion chamber. When the local temperature exceeds the autoignition temperature, knock occurs.

The performance of the hydrocarbon octane is used as a standard to measure resistance to knock, and is assigned a relative octane rating of 100. Fuels with an octane number
over 100 have more resistance to auto-ignition than octane itself. Hydrogen has a very high research octane number and is therefore resistant to knock even when combusted under
ignition energy for all of these fuels is very low so that conditions that will ignite one fuel will generally ignite any of the others.very lean conditions.

Ignition energy is the amount of external energy that must be applied in order to ignite a combustible fuel mixture. Energy from an external source must be higher than the
autoignition temperature and be of sufficient duration to heat the fuel vapor to its ignition temperature. Common ignition sources are flames and sparks. Although hydrogen has a higher autoignition temperature than methane, propane or gasoline, its ignition energy at 1.9 x 10–8 Btu (0.02 mJ) is about an order of magnitude lower and is therefore more easily ignitable. Even an invisible spark or static electricity discharge from a human body (in dry conditions) may have enough energy to cause ignition. Nonetheless, it is important to realize that the ignition energy for all of these fuels is very low so that conditions that will ignite one fuel will generally ignite any of the others.

I am by no means an expert of anything...lol. I sourced this information from the internet. Perhaps someone else can explain why a car engine doesnt idle up when HHO is applied, but a smaller non ecu controlled engine does.

[Stratous]

try filling a NOS bottle with HHO and injecting it the same way you do NOS and see what happens. I am pretty sure it has to do with volume. The amount of NOS or gas injected to increast RPM's is probably alot more than the amount injected by our HHO generators. From a personal experiance, with my truck in 6th gear, it will idle at 25mph w/o the hho device on. With the hho device on the truck idles in 6th at 26 to 27mph. Of course it flucuates depending on terrain either way.