Lack of Results

Originally Posted by Walt

Before you see a lot of results you have to lean down the carb (as stated before). I have seen old quadrapukes with mixture screws that would not effect anything. Is the carb old? Also where are you injecting the HHo? If you are pre manifold you might be loosing the HHO before it gets sucked down into the engine. Another thing to look at if mileage is your main goal and performance is not so much is the timing, especialy if you are content to run at lower RPMs with a soft foot.

Walt

How do you figure the HHO will be lost??? Going to a vacuum line is usually problematic for several reasons. There is maximum vacuum at the manifold at IDLE, and least when you accelerate. Just the opposite of what you want for feeding HHO into a motor. I think most using HHO go to the air intake, close to the butterfly.

Going to other than a vacuum line or manifold is ok, no HHO will be lost going to the air intake.

[sp1r0]

Originally Posted by buffordboy23

I disagree because the amount of hydrogen relative to the other gases in the cylinder is very small. In general, the engine should run cooler instead. A lean mixture means a greater quantity of air in the engine cylinders. Therefore, more heat will be absorbed by the gases for expansion, and less heat is transferred to the cylinder walls of the engine.

Running your engine lean does pose risks, such as pre-ignition and knocking. Hydrogen addition to an ICE engine, if in sufficient quantities, is what allows one to operate lean without the large fear of such risks, so be careful that you do not lean out the mixture too much at first.

You can disagree all you want. I am a mechanic before an HHO hobbyist. Here is some info on the matter from another forum, real dangers from running lean: http://hypography.com/forums/chemist...e-run-hot.html

[smartHHO]

From what I know from all I have been told and read, that putting a little bit of Mystery Oil in with your normal oil makes the engine have way less friction, thus less heat. Now, remember, this is what I have read and been told. If you believe different, please state it here. But I know my grandfather was a mechanic on older cars for 50 years before he died. And he always used to drain his car of oil, then put some diesel thru the engine and then added Mystery Oil and normal oil. His cars always ran great and never had any issues with them.

[buffordboy23]

Originally Posted by sp1r0

You can disagree all you want. I am a mechanic before an HHO hobbyist. Here is some info on the matter from another forum, real dangers from running lean: http://hypography.com/forums/chemist...e-run-hot.html

Yes, you are right in some regards. Here is a more precise description. At stoichiometric, a large amount of heat is available during combustion, however, not all of the gasoline is combusted. Therefore, if we run leaner, then this extra portion of gasoline is more likely to be combusted, giving off more heat energy than before, so this could result in the scenario which you describe. If we lean the engine out even more, so that the extra air has negligible effect on combusting this extra gasoline, then the role of this extra air is to absorb more heat from combustion so that gases do more work on the piston, and less heat is transferred to cylinder walls. This increases the thermal efficiency of the engine, and is why many people lean their cars to for hydrogen addition.

Originally Posted by buffordboy23

Yes, you are right in some regards. Here is a more precise description. At stoichiometric, a large amount of heat is available during combustion, however, not all of the gasoline is combusted. Therefore, if we run leaner, then this extra portion of gasoline is more likely to be combusted, giving off more heat energy than before, so this could result in the scenario which you describe. If we lean the engine out even more, so that the extra air has negligible effect on combusting this extra gasoline, then the role of this extra air is to absorb more heat from combustion so that gases do more work on the piston, and less heat is transferred to cylinder walls. This increases the thermal efficiency of the engine, and is why many people lean their cars to for hydrogen addition.

A lean a/f mixture burns hotter than a non-lean or rich mixture. It does not matter so much how much heat is absorbed by the cylinder walls because they are liquid cooled. The pistons, piston rings and valves are what get's burnt in a lean running engine. They are not liquid cooled. Even if the extra air was to absorb more of the heat, it has to pass by the exhaust valves, overheating them in the proccess.

"This increases the thermal efficiency of the engine, and is why many people lean their cars to for hydrogen addition"

Incorrect. The reason many people are leaning out thier cars is because the ecu is detecting a lean condition when hho is used and making their cars run rich. They are returning their cars to the a/f ratio that they ran correctly on before hho. At least this is what they should be doing.

I do not recomend leaning out an engine for the modest amount of hho a 'booster' will put out. The hho increases the burn efficiancy of the current fuel. If a high output hho unit(greater than 5LPM) is to be used then leaning out the a/f mix would be neccisary, however so would valve timing and ignition timing.

[smartHHO]

You brought up a good point of the pistons and what not taking on a lot of the heat. What popped into my mind was an oil cooler. Since the pistons are running up and down in the oil, they are transferring heat to the oil, but the oil is not really cooling down much going thru the filter that is being blown on as your drive. So, if you tossed a mini oil cooler by the radiator, do you think then you would cool down the pistons somewhat? Not for the sake of leaning out, but I am curious if it would work. We are talking about the 63 Ford still, not a newer car for this experiment.

So let me get this straight....As a mechanic you suggest that leaning your A/F ratio back to what it would be before the HHO Gen install is okay. But anything beyond that (replacing HHO for Gas) is 100% bad? Are you saying that HHO can't replace gas cause of how you engine would react to it by over heating? I am really curious to hear about this from a mechanic. I am about to do some crazy tests on my really old truck. I don't mind at all if my trucks blows up, but I am doing this to get things perfect before I do it on my better vehicles

Originally Posted by timetowinarace

I do not recomend leaning out an engine for the modest amount of hho a 'booster' will put out. The hho increases the burn efficiancy of the current fuel. If a high output hho unit(greater than 5LPM) is to be used then leaning out the a/f mix would be neccisary, however so would valve timing and ignition timing.

I disagree entirely. In order to get any MPG increase in both my vehicles I had to lean out my fuel mixture. On both my vehicles the MPG went down when I introduced the HHO to the engine.

Originally Posted by Smith03Jetta

I disagree entirely. In order to get any MPG increase in both my vehicles I had to lean out my fuel mixture. On both my vehicles the MPG went down when I introduced the HHO to the engine.

Yes, I read your thread. The mpg's went down because your ecu wrongly perceived a lean condition and attempted to correct it by richening the mix, as in, adding more fuel. Thus the decreased mpg's. If I remember correctly, no, on second thought I'll quote your words so my memory is not relied on.

Post 18 in your smith experiment thread:

"I did a 100 mile MPG test. I ran exactly 99.8 miles and pulled in to the Kangaroo Station. The 87 octane fuel cost $3.76 a gallon. I calculated the MPG at 31.5. That does not seem significant but during my test, I was on the interstate doing 75 to 80 with the AC running. I normally get about 25 mpg under those driving conditions. I calculated that I achieved a 25% increase in my gas mileage. The Jetta normally gets 31 mpg driving 60 with the AC off in the winter.

I attribute a 10% increase in my fuel mileage to tampering with the O2 sensor. That is supposed to lean out the fuel consumption. The other 15% has got to be the HHO"

After that the ecu compensation put you on a course to reverse the changes the ecu made. My point is simple. The hho was working with stock a/f ratio untill the ecu compensated. Do you disagree with that statement?

While you did start out with an O2 sencer mod, I believe you found the extender mostly useless as most that have tried it have.

I have read many, many posts of reports of people installing thier units and getting great initial gains only to lose them to the ecu. This tells me gains from hho can be made with the standard stock a/f ratio.

A non-ecu engine will not/can not compensate for a lean condition on it's own. Initial gains that are seen will remain.

Originally Posted by Westcoastrocks

So let me get this straight....As a mechanic you suggest that leaning your A/F ratio back to what it would be before the HHO Gen install is okay. But anything beyond that (replacing HHO for Gas) is 100% bad? Are you saying that HHO can't replace gas cause of how you engine would react to it by over heating? I am really curious to hear about this from a mechanic. I am about to do some crazy tests on my really old truck. I don't mind at all if my trucks blows up, but I am doing this to get things perfect before I do it on my better vehicles

If your refering to my post, I'm not a mechanic. That is another member. These are my somewhat educated opinions.

To answer your question, for a booster producing 2L or less you should keep the a/f ratio at pre-hho levels. All you are doing with a booster is getting a complete burn of the fuel in the cylinder rather than having unburnt fuel left over to burn in the catalytic converter. This is why hho works as a booster.

As for larger amounts of hho, I don't consider it a booster anymore. When hho levels increase to the point that engine parameters need to be adjusted such as a/f ratio, we are beyond the 'booster' level and are using hho as a fuel. I did not say this is bad. If done correctly it will not hurt the engine. My opinion is that ignition timing will be the first change needed as increasing amounts of hho are introduced.

I also have an older vehicle and at some point will run it on as much hho as I can produce on board. This will be done in steps. As I increase hho, I will make timing adjustments, then begin to 'wean' it off of gasoline. While the ultimate goal will be to run on 100% hho or hydrogen I'm not convinced I can achieve it, so I'm interested to know how little gasoline I can run on.