HHO/MPG Theory Debate

[Philldpapill]

So, what causes the increase in MPG? I've heard a few theories which have some merit, some that don't. I'd like to start this thread discussing the science of what is going on in the engine that gives rise to an increase in fuel efficiency.

My theory, involves the flashpoint of H2 compared to the hydrocarbons in gasoline. Basically, it takes less heat for H2 and O2 to react, than it does for a longer hydrocarbon chain like the ones in gasoline. If this is the case, then it seems the flamefront in the engine would be somewhat faster, with the H2 "igniting" first, giving a more uniform burn.

Your thoughts? Your theories?

[biggy boy]

Yes I'm with you. The flame front is sped up.

1) So is the HHO increasing the flame front speed of the gasoline?

2)Or does the gasoline's flame front speed stay the same, just the flame speed of the HHO is faster?

If the second idea is true, then you would be taking a combined average of the two flame fronts and using that number as your new flame front speed!?!?

If this indeed is what you are thinking then yes It would make sense that the HHO is not acting as a catalyst.

But if the HHO is altering the flame front speed of the gasoline then I would
think that the HHO is acting on the gasoline as a catalyst?

I by no means know, I'm just speculating at this point.


Glen

[Roland Jacques]

here is a interesting video on the subject. Its kind of funny, it is a typed movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78_Iy...layer_embedded

[biggy boy]

Funny I watched that vidio last weekend.

[Philldpapill]

So... Any ideas about how to TEST the flame propogation speed of HHO vs. stochiometric gasoline/oxygen? I'd really like to get some data on this... If anyone can think up an expirement, I'm sure I could supply/design any electronics needed.

[M34me]

Don't have time to watch the vid right now.

So you're saying that the spark ignites the hho which burns 10 times faster than gas, which in turn provides a much larger source of ignition to the gas (essentially eliminating the need to index your plugs) which helps in a significantly more complete burn.

Just to throw a wrench in the mix, what is the burn rate of LNG and LPG?

My dad had a car back in the '80s that ran on LNG (he worked for the gas company) A Buick Century if I remember right. No mods to the engine other than the delivery system.

[AlexR]

I would suggest we first discuss what Brown's Gas is before we get into what it does.

[Boltazar]

We know the the burn rate using HHO is faster than gasoline alone. Using HHO and gas causes the gas to burn more completely releasing more energy enabeling us to cut back on the amount of gas injected into the engine giving us better gas milage.

What we need to figure out is how to beat the computer to compensate for the extra Oxygen in the system at the pre cat O sensors.

The computer wants to run at 14.3 to 1, air to gas and will do anyting to compensate to achieve that. The tables have to be changed in the computer so it wil run the way we want. This requires reprograming the computer. A hp tuner might do this.

[Philldpapill]

AlexR, "Brown's Gas" = "HHO" = 2H2 + O2. That's pretty well established. It's not anything super special or magical, but apparently, the addition of it into a gasoline/air mixture gives some benefits. Since we know what the stuff IS, this conversation is about what it DOES.

Boltazar, I don't want to spread any misinformation. It's not CONCLUDED that the flamefront has a higher speed than gasoline alone, but that is just my theory. I don't want to present that as fact, yet.

However, all this talk about "burning the gas more completely" is really just nonsense. The portion of gasoline that does NOT burn, is extremely low - in the range of about 1%. A "more complete burn" is obviously not the answer. I think that the increased burn RATE is what we need to investigate. An increased burn rate would cause a faster expansion of gas, allowing for a higher expansion-to-heat conduction ratio. In other words, the piston doesn't just sit there with moderately hot gas inside, leaking heat out, but instead, nearly instantly begins forcing the piston down.

BTW, Boltazar - I really like your quotes.

As for the extra O2 and beating the computer - I think a simple modification to the O2 sensor wire is the easiest way. If the O2 sensor puts out a voltage proportional to the amount of O2, a single voltage divider would suffice(two resistors and MAYBE an opamp to buffer the votlage).

[Boltazar]

a single voltage divider would suffice(two resistors and MAYBE an opamp to buffer the votlage).

would that be a efie?