Painless experiment in HHO

[Consaka]

Whoops, I forgot to set the permissions on those jpgs on my linux server, they should work now.

I've removed four of the plates that seemed to be generating the nasty stuff. It seemed to be coming out of the plate surfaces.

I've now had to go to -NNNN+NNNN-NNNN+NNNN- due to the lost plates, at least it will allow me to try that config which seems to be popular among dry cell users.

Check out the pics, its interesting. The only thing I can think of that's different since I last used them is that they have been cross scored.
I should also mention that in the worst contaminated cell, it was eating at the PVC gaskets.

I should probably finish reading before i comment but I think you should have that stuff analyzed by a chemistry lab. I think it is one of the metals in the stainless that could be toxic. I could be wrong but I have seen it before and I have seen it eat right through stainless steel 316L no less. Whatever it is its extremely caustic. I also think AIR plays a role in its formation because everytime I have seen it form it has been in the presence of air in wet bath systems where the tolerances are really close like you have there. Pressurising your cell to keep bubble size down might help. and by that I mean increasing the solution flow through the dry cell.

[Consaka]

My truck does have a V8!

heheI think he meant to drink

[Painless]

I should probably finish reading before i comment but I think you should have that stuff analyzed by a chemistry lab. I think it is one of the metals in the stainless that could be toxic. I could be wrong but I have seen it before and I have seen it eat right through stainless steel 316L no less. Whatever it is its extremely caustic. I also think AIR plays a role in its formation because everytime I have seen it form it has been in the presence of air in wet bath systems where the tolerances are really close like you have there. Pressurising your cell to keep bubble size down might help. and by that I mean increasing the solution flow through the dry cell.

Unfortunately, I've cleaned up the plates now with a sander in prep for a new build. The material, once dry, is like a fine brown dust. It seems to be brought on by high current flow through the cell which would support your theory about the close gaps.

I'm going to settle for a larger gap on my next cell and may even go from a 5 to 6 neutral configuration.

Russ.

[H2OPWR]

Russ, I have had this idea bouncing around in my head for some time now. I probably will give it a try as soon as I get my cell installed. I am in way too deep with this design to stop now. I was going to give it a try myself but you need square plates and I have been to busy with my design. You keep coming back to the same thing. A plastic case of some material or another with slots cut for the plates to sit in. Instead of cutting slots and not getting them perfect why not try this. Find some metal metetial (flat washers or something) that is the exact size you want your gap to be. Use the metal material as spacers and stack your plates like you want them. Then clamp them together tightly with a metal c clamp. Use all metal because some heat will be involved here. Cut the side, botton, and any other piece of whatever material you are going to use to the exact size to fit your plate stack. Heat the plastic material in the oven to just under it's max temp (so the next step will be quicker) and keep it there until ready for the next step. Then with a propane torch heat all ends of the plates to well above the melting temp of the plastic material. Next simply remove the plastic from the oven and press gently on the heated ends of the plates. You now have perfectly aligned slots exactly where you want them. Remove the plastic and let cool. Repeat for any other pieces you want slotted. It would be much faster and easier than milling the slots in. Assemble the plastic together in some fashion like with a plastic welder. You now have exactly what you want to build but did it in just a few hours. Now you have a true zero current leakage cell while I am still trying to get my holes sealed up.

[SmartScarecrow]

Russ, I have had this idea bouncing around in my head for some time now. I probably will give it a try as soon as I get my cell installed. I am in way too deep with this design to stop now. I was going to give it a try myself but you need square plates and I have been to busy with my design. You keep coming back to the same thing. A plastic case of some material or another with slots cut for the plates to sit in. Instead of cutting slots and not getting them perfect why not try this. Find some metal metetial (flat washers or something) that is the exact size you want your gap to be. Use the metal material as spacers and stack your plates like you want them. Then clamp them together tightly with a metal c clamp. Use all metal because some heat will be involved here. Cut the side, botton, and any other piece of whatever material you are going to use to the exact size to fit your plate stack. Heat the plastic material in the oven to just under it's max temp (so the next step will be quicker) and keep it there until ready for the next step. Then with a propane torch heat all ends of the plates to well above the melting temp of the plastic material. Next simply remove the plastic from the oven and press gently on the heated ends of the plates. You now have perfectly aligned slots exactly where you want them. Remove the plastic and let cool. Repeat for any other pieces you want slotted. It would be much faster and easier than milling the slots in. Assemble the plastic together in some fashion like with a plastic welder. You now have exactly what you want to build but did it in just a few hours. Now you have a true zero current leakage cell while I am still trying to get my holes sealed up.

the biggest problem with the "gasket less" device is getting the spacers done in a uniform manner ... I did a 13 plate unit using nylon 1/4 inch thick last year and know of a couple other guys who have done similar ... doing the spacers by hand using the tools I have available to me is tedious and not precise enough ...

however, if you had a prototype spacer that worked well and were happy with the design, it is possible to have a mold made and then use an injection molding process to have the spacers made with great precision ... I think there is a guy in Florida doing this now ... in fact, I think he is selling the spacers for about $3 each or there abouts ... the spacers he makes are intended to accept a 6" by 6" piece of steel but I am not sure what gauge ...

so it can indeed be done, has been done, and in the long run, this is probably how it will be done in the next generation of dry cells ... question right now as always is, can we do it in such a way that average Joe can afford it ... it dont do anyone any good to have a great product that no one can afford to buy ...

[Painless]

Russ, I have had this idea bouncing around in my head for some time now. I probably will give it a try as soon as I get my cell installed. I am in way too deep with this design to stop now. I was going to give it a try myself but you need square plates and I have been to busy with my design. You keep coming back to the same thing. A plastic case of some material or another with slots cut for the plates to sit in. Instead of cutting slots and not getting them perfect why not try this. Find some metal metetial (flat washers or something) that is the exact size you want your gap to be. Use the metal material as spacers and stack your plates like you want them. Then clamp them together tightly with a metal c clamp. Use all metal because some heat will be involved here. Cut the side, botton, and any other piece of whatever material you are going to use to the exact size to fit your plate stack. Heat the plastic material in the oven to just under it's max temp (so the next step will be quicker) and keep it there until ready for the next step. Then with a propane torch heat all ends of the plates to well above the melting temp of the plastic material. Next simply remove the plastic from the oven and press gently on the heated ends of the plates. You now have perfectly aligned slots exactly where you want them. Remove the plastic and let cool. Repeat for any other pieces you want slotted. It would be much faster and easier than milling the slots in. Assemble the plastic together in some fashion like with a plastic welder. You now have exactly what you want to build but did it in just a few hours. Now you have a true zero current leakage cell while I am still trying to get my holes sealed up.

Larry,

I've already tried this approach with the acrylic, but no joy. The problem is when you apply heat to the acrylic, it warps and bends before it gets hot enough to be able to press the plates into it.

I do want to try heating the plates instead, I have some nylon spacers I can use for the cell gaps. I'm just hoping that they don't melt in the process. Alternatively, I could use some other plates as spacers for now and gently pull them out.

I'm going to experiment again with this Monday morning, haven't been able to do much this weekend due to my weekend work shift.

Russ.

[SmartScarecrow]

The problem with the spacers out of Florida is getting them. I emailed the guy several times and eventually called him. He told me to email him..... however, he never replied to any emails.....

that is disappointing to hear ... last I heard from ZeroFossilFuel, the fellow doing those spacers seemed quite serious and was looking for people to test the design ... he may have fallen victim to the poor economic conditions right now ... not sure ... but I am sorry to hear that he did not jump on the opportunity to do some business ...

[H2OPWR]

the biggest problem with the "gasket less" device is getting the spacers done in a uniform manner ... I did a 13 plate unit using nylon 1/4 inch thick last year and know of a couple other guys who have done similar ... doing the spacers by hand using the tools I have available to me is tedious and not precise enough ...

however, if you had a prototype spacer that worked well and were happy with the design, it is possible to have a mold made and then use an injection molding process to have the spacers made with great precision ... I think there is a guy in Florida doing this now ... in fact, I think he is selling the spacers for about $3 each or there abouts ... the spacers he makes are intended to accept a 6" by 6" piece of steel but I am not sure what gauge ...

so it can indeed be done, has been done, and in the long run, this is probably how it will be done in the next generation of dry cells ... question right now as always is, can we do it in such a way that average Joe can afford it ... it dont do anyone any good to have a great product that no one can afford to buy ...

You are absolutely correct about the cost. So far I am not trying to sell anything. If I was everything I am doing is going the wrong way. WAY TOO MUCH LABOR. If the Polyurea comes through that could work cost wise but a plottor cut masking material would have to be sourced. I spent 8 hours masking off both sides of 51 plates with tape. That alone would doom the idea for comercial production. It could be overcome with good sourcing. In my opion good products are having a hell of a time getting their fair share of this small market because of the cheap bad products. How do you compete with a $89.00 underperforming product that undercuts your price by half or even way more. The average Joe is just too misinformed to make a good decision and spent the extra money for a good device. It seems that the people selling the worst products are the ones spreading the bad information. They are great at it as well. I shudder everytime someone joins this forum looking for help with their Water4Gas device. Then we all have to tell them to throw it away and start over. We give them advice on building a dry cell. Most of them stay a few days then never log back in. I am sure that most then throw their unit away and walk away from HHO dissapointed.

[SmartScarecrow]

You are absolutely correct about the cost. So far I am not trying to sell anything. If I was everything I am doing is going the wrong way. WAY TOO MUCH LABOR. If the Polyurea comes through that could work cost wise but a plottor cut masking material would have to be sourced. I spent 8 hours masking off both sides of 51 plates with tape. That alone would doom the idea for comercial production. It could be overcome with good sourcing. In my opion good products are having a hell of a time getting their fair share of this small market because of the cheap bad products. How do you compete with a $89.00 underperforming product that undercuts your price by half or even way more. The average Joe is just too misinformed to make a good decision and spent the extra money for a good device. It seems that the people selling the worst products are the ones spreading the bad information. They are great at it as well. I shudder everytime someone joins this forum looking for help with their Water4Gas device. Then we all have to tell them to throw it away and start over. We give them advice on building a dry cell. Most of them stay a few days then never log back in. I am sure that most then throw their unit away and walk away from HHO dissapointed.

if the polyurethane works well in this design, start thinking about a molded process where the piece of steel would be placed in a jig, then a mold would be applied to inject the polyurethane into place in a single step ... the mold would include channels to permit fluid in the bottom and gas/fluid out the top ... might even include a circular hole at the top and bottom of the molded piece such that when the pieces where stacked, a tube for primary inlet and outlet would be formed ... this is quite similar to the process EBN is investigating for its next generation device ... a one piece plate/spacer/gasket that is easily stacked to any required size ... but we are looking at injection molding of Teflon material because of its unique properties handling high temperatures and pressures ... if the polyurethane works any where near as well, it could be done at a lot lower cost ... Teflon is very expensive ...

[Consaka]

Russ, I hate to see that with all the trouble and preperation you went with this cell. Just my two cents worth. With the size of your cell I think the .040 spacing may be too small. The gas and electrolite may have a hard time getting in and out. I would bet that the center gaps were starving for electrolite and boiling what water they did have causing the gaskets to melt and not allowing the gunk any way to escape the plate gaps in the electrolite. Seems to me that if the plates were leaching that much you would have noticed it in the electrolite long before you got that much build up.

Larry

Once that gunk starts to bridge a cell it is all over. Painless, if you carefully clean your plates I bet you will find that there is serious etching on them. Divits like rust pits etc. I had a few experiments do this to me and one I was using very heavy duty stainless steel washers and that gunk ate nearly clear through them. I had it happen again with a wire coil that I had really close to the opposite polarity wire.. In other words i wrapped them staggered. It happened when the water level got low and the brown stuff started accumulating near the top of the jar. Ate right through both wires. It was literally arcing(you could see it) inside that brown gunk. That brown gunk will act somewhat like a short and it will eat stainless steel for breakfast. Id really really love to know what its chemical composition is. If someone knows where to send it id suggest scrapping some together and sending it to a lab. I dont have alot of money hence my primitive experiments but id donate towards those lab costs.